What happened to integrity????

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:20 pm

localjunkpeddler wrote:Man up?? well I suppose............. Being a ticket holder certainly isn't the same as being a HAM. I will apologize for getting your time frame wrong, however. A little research on your part would have led you to find that I'm K4LJP, and I'm quite proud of my reputation on all three of the major Ham classified pages. I received my first radio at the age of eight back in 1952. During my working years I possessed a !st Class GROL and was a Two- way radio professional. Now that I've retired I'm only an amateur.
For nearly 60 years, I've been involved with radio, buying, trading, repairing, and collecting which qualifies me as saying that I've been in the radio rodeo long enough to spot a real Ham.

Where's the apology for the unfounded accusations? Just tell us what a "real ham" is, and how you "spot" one. Did some research on you as you suggested,. You appear to have been licensed in 2005. Now tell us who the real no-code HAM NEWBIE is, man what a nerve you've got.

I really do expect a public apology over those defamatory statements you made.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:39 pm

Before this goes much further, I want to say a couple of FACTS about the two purchases that fell thru. First we're not talking about trivial purchases, one was an ic-7000 and the other was a pro-iii. We've been discussing the ic-7000 deal in this thread, but I think I should say something about the other deal for the pro-iii to help explain where I'm coming from.

We had face-to-face set up with a place and date to do the swap. The seller backed out after committing this far. Seems he had a fence sitter that was allowed to "come up with the money" after they committed to sell it to me. Now who wasted who's time? Who acted in good faith and who didn't? If need be, I can post the sanitized e-mail exchange between us.

I'm not attacking all sellers, though you'd think that was the case. I'm just trying to come to grips with people calling themselves HAMs, yet thinking nothing of breaking their word after putting it in writing. I find it disturbing. Especially coming from people plenty old enough to know better.

EDIT: I finally updated my BIO on QRZ if anyone cares. There's a picture of the amp I'm currently restoring.

K4JC · Post by **K4JC** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:03 am

I'm a few days late, but let me toss in my 2 cents' worth. If you're trying to buy a fairly common item, such as an IC-7000 or a PROIII, there are plenty of them being advertised for sale these days. Don't let one particular seller get you all worked up. Unless it's something extremely rare just wait for another rig to come along. I've been frustrated many times by people selling "my" item out from under me, but maybe it's best I don't deal with them anyway. There are plenty of hams here with stellar reputations who buy and sell gear regularly, and who would be happy to sell you the rig you want at a fair price.

Whenever I post an item for sale and get multiple responses, I give the first responder first choice, and tell the others that someone else is interested, "but if it falls through you're second in line, third in line, etc." That way the door is left open in case deal #1 falls through. Of course scammers get a different response, but that's another thread...

My greatest frustration is when someone posts an ad, I answer literally within minutes of it being posted, and finally get an answer days later that says, "sorry sold" (if I get a response at all!)

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:23 am

Gotta side with 9XR and the majority on this one. It seems the whole thing pivots on an ambiguity. Not that this is a legal matter..but... When an ambiguity exists in legal issues such as contracts , the ambiguity is decided AGAINST the person issuing that ambiguity. This is the case since people will often intentionally put forth an ambiguity in a effort to leave both options open.
It has been hinted in this case but yet not proven that the seller took a better offer . That isn't even part of the discussion since the spurned "buyer" laid out no cash. As a result of his own unclear communication the would be buyer has "lost out" on this deal . Rather than sour graping the loss it could be time to learn from this and "move on".
Next time leave out the confounding language.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:01 pm

kg8lb wrote:...
It has been hinted in this case but yet not proven that the seller took a better offer . That isn't even part of the discussion since the spurned "buyer" laid out no cash.

What are you talking about??? I never said, hinted, implied or anything else that the seller took a "better" offer. I only said he took another offer without saying anything about it. Another straw man.

I only have to "prove" the things that I say, nothing else. If others want to keep adding "facts" to the case, then they can answer to that.

K9XR · Post by **K9XR** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:01 pm

I think You meant "the buyer lost out"?

kg8lb wrote:Gotta side with 9XR and the majority on this one. It seems the whole thing pivots on an ambiguity. Not that this is a legal matter..but... When an ambiguity exists in legal issues such as contracts , the ambiguity is decided AGAINST the person issuing that ambiguity. This is the case since people will often intentionally put forth an ambiguity in a effort to leave both options open.
It has been hinted in this case but yet not proven that the seller took a better offer . That isn't even part of the discussion since the spurned "buyer" laid out no cash.
As a result of his own unclear communication the seller has "lost out" on this deal .
Rather than sour graping the loss it could be time to learn from this and "move on".
Next time leave out the confounding language.

NY7Q · Post by **NY7Q** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:34 pm

Where I come from, first with the money inhand gets the deal.
I agree with the junkman also.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:38 pm

K9XR wrote:I think You meant "the buyer lost out"?

kg8lb wrote:Gotta side with 9XR and the majority on this one. It seems the whole thing pivots on an ambiguity. Not that this is a legal matter..but... When an ambiguity exists in legal issues such as contracts , the ambiguity is decided AGAINST the person issuing that ambiguity. This is the case since people will often intentionally put forth an ambiguity in a effort to leave both options open.
It has been hinted in this case but yet not proven that the seller took a better offer . That isn't even part of the discussion since the spurned "buyer" laid out no cash.
As a result of his own unclear communication the seller has "lost out" on this deal .
Rather than sour graping the loss it could be time to learn from this and "move on".
Next time leave out the confounding language.

Yes , thank you. The would be "buyer" lost out . After saying "I'll take it if you still have it" you in fact agreed to purchase with but ONE condition . When the seller responded yes , I still have it you willy-wonky back pedaled ! Yes , THE SELLER TOOK A BETTER OFFER . A live offer , yours was dead when you went back pedaled and added yet another condition . Payment wins , additional inquiries don't always buy more time.
The seller took better offer after you balked and went back on on your agreement to purchase and never mentioned payment .
The seller has no need to explain nor feel in the least like he did anything wrong. He owes you nothing after you balked . Yes indeed A BETTER OFFER. Since you pulled yours back by default . Money talks / Bullshot walks .

w8jn · Post by **w8jn** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:38 pm

Mike,
Anytime we list something, we have 2 or 3 types of replies, tire kickers with lots of questions and unable to pull the trigger, Nigerians who need the money for their dying mother with kidney stones and the buyers who know that "money talks and bs walks.
best 73 Paul w8jn

W4LTD · Post by **W4LTD** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:42 pm

Wow, this sure got off-track...

Anyway, as a Seller, I always accept PayPal as the preferred method of payment; simply due to the countless "tire kickers" and false promises to pay that I have received over the years. Unless I have dealt with the buyer previously and/or the buyer has a decent "Google Record", I will always take money in hand first. There have been many occasions that I have held an item, pending receipt of a check or money order, but nowadays, "people" have become much less honorable as to their promises.

Think of QTH.com as a Garage Sale, in that, when someone comes up to you wanting an item you have for sale, they give you the cash and carry on. If that same person decided to hem and haw, then said he/she had to go to the nearest ATM to get you cash, what's the likelihood he/she will return? Meanwhile, you may have turned away 2 or 3 other people who really wanted it and had cash in hand (PayPal).

Is that worth $0.02? If so, would you take a check?

K4TEC · Post by **K4TEC** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:29 pm

Wow your getting the same crap I do and whats more from the same people hihi I feel for you I really do

I am sorry I dont have time to listen to this idle gossip from bored individuals who have nothing better to do with their time other than to slander other good guys here.

And whats more if you do defend yourself because yuo have done nothing wrong,, thats WRONG TOO!!!

So no matter what, you will never win, never be good enough and luckily never live next door to these unstable people.

Thank goodness for forums like this that actually bring out these "people" and expose them for what they really are like.

NORMAL people can see this and thank goodness for ip blocking so I dont have to see their verbage.

73s and good luck with your comments, and future purchaces on QTH.com

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:13 pm

K4TEC wrote:Wow your getting the same crap I do and whats more from the same people hihi I feel for you I really do

I am sorry I dont have time to listen to this idle gossip from bored individuals who have nothing better to do with their time other than to slander other good guys here.

And whats more if you do defend yourself because yuo have done nothing wrong,, thats WRONG TOO!!!

So no matter what, you will never win, never be good enough and luckily never live next door to these unstable people.

Thank goodness for forums like this that actually bring out these "people" and expose them for what they really are like.

NORMAL people can see this and thank goodness for ip blocking so I dont have to see their verbage.

73s and good luck with your comments, and future purchaces on QTH.com

I'm pretty much done arguing, since it doesn't do any good. They don't debate, they use fallacious reasoning and it's just ridiculous. I know I won't be buying off some people here, that much is clear.

I did buy a TS-850 and it had some audio trouble at first, but the seller was a stand-up guy and offered to help with repair. It ended up not needing a trip to the shop, a simple trimmer cap adjustment and it's sounding good again.

I'm glad I can read and comprehend, it really saves me allot of money on things like making my own repairs and spotting sellers that might be next on the list to take someone to the cleaners due to a personal lack of integrity and unwillingness to stand behind their word.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:58 pm

No need to argue.
You have stated your first response was "I'll take it if you still have it". That is well and good.
The seller responded
"Hello, Still have the IC-7000. It is yours if you want it. "

Prettty simple now, most people would respond with an "OK, how shall I arrange payment" or some such affirmation . However, your response was a bit ambiguous in that it seemed to now place possible conditions on final approval :
"
Cool, I do have some questions though about the remote cable. Is it
sturdy enough to stay connected in a mobile? Which end is damaged, the radio
end
or the head end? Is the screw something findable, or is it something
really odd? "
.. The response was possibly puzzling to a person not knowing all about your integrity. The seller may have had a few of the all too common "I'll take it" followed by a changed mind when a detail is revealed. This type of an inquiry is all too typical of a buyer showing the first signs of cold feet. To many sellers it looks like an escape road being paved.

Ambiguity rightfully often works against the person issuing that ambiguity.

In the mean time a subsequent interested party seems to have communicated his intentions clearly and actually completed payment before you did.

Pretty clear to see that is was a simple mis-understanding. Not a character flaw nor the seeds to assault one's character. Let alone the character and intelligence of those who disagree with you. You placed your case in a public forum and you got public opinions .

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:09 pm

I'm not ashamed of what I've said. If anyone feels that they are a close enough fit to what I said to take offense, then perhaps they should examine themselves with some of the scrutiny they so like to pour out. I'll state it again, someone breaking their word after putting it in writing without so much as saying boo before selling to someone else is not my idea of someone overflowing with integrity. Perceived ambiguity or not. The prudent thing would have been for the seller to have either asked for payment in his response or responded to my questions in a timely manner with something other than a message indicating that they've taken another offer behind my back.

EDIT: I'll concede that I shouldn't have referred to the seller as a "jerk". It's usually not my style to just out and out call someone names anyway. Besides, the seller isn't in here calling me names. I can't speak for some of the other esteemed sellers that are present.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:17 pm

Bottom line, you say he should have asked for payment, others may think you should have offered to pay as a response to his "IF you (still) want it" rather than confounding the situation with more questions. I have merely offered up the other side of the story in an effort to help you understand how a simple mis understanding took place. It seems you feel you did everything right and everyone else did or thinks wrongly.

So be it. In the end however you lost out, the fellow who communicated promptly and coherently got the radio. If you fail to learn from this odds are it will happen again. Perhaps your self examination suggestion is a good one, consider it.

Correct , the seller is not a jerk. Sorry if someone has been calling you names . On the other hand,expressing a different view of course is not really "name calling".

No offense taken here.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:00 am

kg8lb wrote:Bottom line, you say he should have asked for payment, others may think you should have offered to pay as a response to his "IF you still want it" rather than confounding the situation with more questions. I have merely offered up the other side of the story in an effort to help you understand how a simple mis understanding took place. It seems you feel you did everything right and everyone else did or thinks wrongly.

So be it. In the end however you lost out, the fellow who communicated promptly and coherently got the radio. If you fail to learn from this odds are it will happen again. Perhaps your self examination suggestion is a good one, consider it.

Correct , the seller is not a jerk. Sorry if someone has been calling you names . On the other hand,expressing a different view of course is not really "name calling".

No offense taken here.

Everyone has already offered up the same "other side of the story". I get it, ok? I should have paid though he never asked or indicated where. I should have never asked questions, except how do I pay. Forget that.

Again with the "you lost" statements, I don't really feel I lost anything. I don't want to deal with people who break their word. And that is the real bottom line. I'm really glad that a few others piped up indicating that this is how they'd do business as well, now I won't wast MY time trying to deal with them either. So, all in all, this has been very fruitful.

As for name calling, I know the difference between that and someone merely expressing a different view. I'm still waiting for a real apology localjunkpeddler.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:21 am

Ok, you at least can say you "got it" although you still seem to insist the other guy did something that lacks "integrity" . You like to shift the blame but assume no responsibility for your failure to ask how to pay .. Instead you offered up more questions about connectors but no indication that you would be sending payment . If the seller has dealt with hams to any extent he has no doubt had a lot of "I WANT IT ! I'LL TAKE IT !" that were followed with a string of questions and an ultimate renig. It happens all the time.

When I offer to buy something , a request for preferred payment and delivery options goes out with my first inquiry. When the seller responds my follow up communication clearly states when and how I will be issuing payment. That is why I have never had to question a seller's "integrity " over a situation like yours.

When people try to explain that to you it is in turn projected upon them by you that they too operate the same way as your seller.Sorry, that is not at all a rational conclusion. Being able to understand how someone else may have received a mixed message is not a clear, conclusive indicator that I too would respond the same way .

I am glad you sense a personal gain from this experience. Your "jerk" seller probably did well too.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Well then we disagree. I feel that breaking my word after putting it in writing IN THIS EXACT CIRCUMSTANCE would be wrong without talking to the potential buyer. But that is my belief, it is obviously not the belief of everyone else present. I believe it would show a lack of integrity. I really doubt that I'm in such a minority as appears to be indicted by the response so far.

You can dispense with the psychological analysis and condescending attitude. I'm not a child, I fully understand what they are trying to say. It's just that I disagree with the claims that I was putting conditions on the purchase. I obviously failed to realize how desperate these sellers must be to promise it to multiple people in order to get the payment in under an hour.

It's not projection when these "others" also agree that they would break their written word as well in the same way. They are including themselves in the group of people I would choose not to deal with. Please read everything carefully before jumping to conclusions.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:02 pm

While you may have known that you were not placing conditions on the deal, your actions left a reasonable doubt with the seller. Since you failed to offer payment the deal fell through. Whilst you were attempting to communicate another person succeded in communicating and making actual payment.
Simple misunderstanding due to poor communications and perhaps past experiences with renigging buyers . The seller may have otherwise lost out on the pending sale while waiting for clarification from you .
You have somewhat over stated the seller's offer as a "promised to me" . He indeed made an offer but clearly with the condition "if you want it" .The seller made it clear that he was not certain that you wanted it. Some affirmation on your part would have been in order. Your response was at best cryptic and offered little affirmation.
(EDIT: Strike "Still" from "If you still want it. Meaning substantially the same)
From your own QRZ profile it seems this was not your first failure at consumating a deal online. You are now blaming the sellers and suggesting that the people pointing out your own shortcomings are disproportionate to your view of real world opinion. So be it. You have now decided to buy new or face to face. Be aware that at hamfests there is always the guy waiting over your shoulder, cash in hand waiting for your first balk at paying. You can lose out there too.

Clear, concise communication wins out over ambiguity. Some sellers can spot tire kickers trying to keep their options open .They have learned VIA experience ! Hope you do. Taking steps to make your intentions clear and obvious are your own responsibility . Play it safe, take the lead. Request payment info up front. Don't cloud with subsequent inquiries . This drags out the process and initiates reasonable doubts.
The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese. That does not make the seller a rat nor a jerk.
Suggesting that someone realizes their own responsibilities rather than passing blame is not condescention. Adults learn from their mistakes and shoulder the responsibility. Excusing oneself by pushing off the blame is child like.

The seller and the real buyer it seems worked out a good exchange. Better luck next time.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:42 pm

The buyer never said the word "still". Why must you change the text first and then construct an argument?

I still feel that you haven't read the entire thread, yet you are commenting. I say this since you just now figure out that two sellers backed out on me after reading my QRZ profile, yet I mentioned it in this thread first. The other seller was going to be a face to face, no paypal involved, no way to pay until we met. No questions, no conditions, just a back out after establishing a meeting place and time and "promising" it to me. What say ye to that? Something non-speculative please.

You say you read my QRZ profile, yet you act like I got my ticket yesterday. I think I know how to handle myself at a hamfest after more than 20 years.

One last thing, I already apologized to the unidentified seller for calling him a jerk. I think you can let up on it now.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:08 pm

You are correct on that one point , strike "still" from the response. That the seller was posing "IF" you want it remains. The meaning of the statement has changed little either way. You were not directly responsive in your reply none the less.That allowed the more responsive buyer to consumate the deal. Hence you are now bitter .

Again, the "promise" you claim was not really an utterance of your seller.

Yes , I read about your other failed transactions early on. I was merely reminded of that point when I read your QRZ profile. Your subsequent mis-assumption is excused.

Now you have somehow managed to add that I have claimed there were two failed deals ? Did YOU read that somewhere ? I said this was not your only failed deal, the two figure is your own .

Yes I did read your profile I have gathered perhaps incorrectly you were a 5 WPM "Know code"as you say it and very likely are now a "No Code" Extra. Good things can come easy for those who wait.

From what you have demonstrated regarding learning from experiences here I offered the suggestions in spite of your considerable (20 years) experience .Buying is really pretty easy. As is blaming your own failures upon others by throwing stones at their integrity.

Projections ?
I have not stated that I would react the same way as your seller. I have said that I understand how and why he may have mis-understood your intentions..period. Not speaking for the others..You need to read a bit better if you intend to hang that one here .
As T.A. Edison was able to learn from failure so can you. We now know some methods work better than others. Good communication skills bring the good radios home. It is up to you.
Yep we disagree. Enjoy what ever radio you manage to land.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:14 pm

I guess you could say it was an assumption on my part, but it has been my experience that when discussing "another" item after the "first", assuming the count to be 2 at that point is generally pretty safe. Maybe I've been wrong.

Of course I"m a no-code Extra, I got upgraded last year. They don't give code tests any more, even if you'd like one. I see you were an Advanced, and I know what that means. I can respect that. I can't help it if they've made things easier over the years, I don't like it much either.

To make any kind of assumption that I had to wait until last year to upgrade would be unfair and incorrect. Just never had the desire to get on the lower bands until last year, what can I say? I didn't get on Ham radio to do Morse code either, but I've been getting into it as of late. Interests change with time I guess.

I do find it humorous that people are still calling each other no-code newbies after all this time, and it's even funnier because it's almost always a case of PKB.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Did I include you specifically, no? I said that OTHERS had said that they would have done the same thing as the seller.

EDIT: Please clearly indicate your edits or I will be forced to childishly quote you so you can't change your words later. I'm not accusing you of being deceptive, I'm just trying to keep it civilized.

So far I have nothing against you, I'd like to keep it that way myself. I understand the whole "simple misunderstanding, I looked like a "typical" tirekicker thing. I still find it hard to believe that I'm at fault when the seller doesn't communicate back, but so be it as you like to say.

BTW, I had another "failed attempt" to purchase a radio, but I take responsibility for that one. I asked the guy if he'd take a bit less than he was asking, and even though he said, "I'll think about it", and then contacted me the next morning with the I sold it to somebody else, I wasn't really all that put off. Believe it or not.

You see, I've been buying and selling things for quite some time from hams. I am not casting aspersions with a broad pen against all sellers. I've dealt with plenty of hams and many, if not most, conduct themselves in a manor that is completely acceptable to me. They stand behind their word and can do business on a handshake. Just so you know.

kg8lb · Post by **kg8lb** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:42 pm

Yep, I only made the "No -code " comment since you made the subject fair game with your own "Know-Code" comment regarding your license acheivments. I am no longer an "Advanced" .Held that ticket for about a month. My Novice lasted around 1 month as well. I passed the 20WPM code test on the night that I passed the Advanced written. Had to wait till next month to take the Extra written exam as time was running short.
I only took the Extra test to gain the added CW priveledges.

Did I say something about "another" after a comment about the "first" ? Even so that may only describe two whilst not excluding additionals.

You seem like a pretty decent guy, disagreement aside. Agreements are over rated any how but clarity does matter and in fact helps avoid disgreements to a large degree.
Best of 73s

Gary/KG8LB

Edit, In reply to your non specific edits:

I am not surprised that the fellow took another offer and that you were not all that put off. I am just a little more surprised that a simple misunderstanding leaps to a question of character.

n5qmg · Post by **n5qmg** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:54 pm

If you had read the whole thread then you should have notice the self professed junk peddler running me down with that no-code newbie stuff. Because he got confused when digging thru my history, he made the assumption that I had just gotten licensed last year. Ironically, it turns out that he was apparently licensed a couple of years ago, right after code test suspension I think.

I'd like to think that I'm not a bad guy, though I do get kinda hot about when people start calling me names, putting words into my mouth, and then practically accusing me of lying. Again, I'm not talking about you here.

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What happened to integrity????

Re: Integrity

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tire kickers

Please read the entire thread and then comment