WC5E

[DereK J. Yungling]

On June 3rd R.L. Howard, WC5E, sent me a PayPal payment of <$50. for some ferrites.
I anticipated shipping that same date, but was unable to get to FedEx until the next day, June 4th, and shipped the ferrites to him on that day.
The ferrites arrived at Abiline, TX FedEx on June 9th. That same day, WC5E filed a FRAUD COMPLAINT with PayPal. asking PayPal to refund the money he transferred to me for the ferrites.
I would expect FedEx to make its first delivery attempt today, June 10th
How is it possible I defrauded Howard when I shipped within a day, the ferrites only arrived in TX yesterday, and FedEx will attempt delivery today, exactly one week after howard's PayPal payment ? ? ? ? In an email to me, Howard told me that I should have shipped on June 3d. ! ! !
I think this world has gone absolutely, totally NUTS

[KA9FOX]

Personally, I find it ridiculous for anyone to file a fraud complaint 1 week after sending payment. If I was the buyer, I'd be ashamed and I'd post an apology here.

- Scott KA9FOX

[oldham]

This is an old scam, but usually much more money is involved. I recently had a rig listed on QTH, a rather high end rig. A buyer with no callsign offered to buy it paypal only. He also said he would pay the fees involved.

The trick works like this. He would send me the paypal payment for the rig. That money sits in your paypal account for up to five days. It is then transferred into your bank account, credit card, however you set it up. A paypal agreement is very much like a direct deposit agreement, bi-directional. Not only can they deposit into your account, they can withdraw as well. Most withdrawls are for purchases, but they can also withdraw to settle a fraud claim.

So on with the scam. Some people ship the item while the payment is still in their paypal account. The buyer receives the item, files a fraud claim, and waits. As you know paypal is part of Epay, and they do the same crummy investigating. Paypal refunds the money to the buyer and he quickly grabs the money and cancels his paypal account.

Guess what? He now has your rig and all the money back. You now are out the rig and left to endless wrangling with the paypal clowns.

Some people think you are safe to wait until paypal puts the money in your account. Unless you close your paypal account instantly you are still dead meat. And why would you close it? You are honest like me and enjoy purchasing stuff online. As long as the account is still open, paypal can reach their long arm into your cash account and snatch the money out anyway!!! Of course not everyone can pull off this scam, but it is occurring as I speak.


With only 50$ involved I doubt that is what happened in this case. Just beware of paypal sales of around 1000$ and up. And by the way, the guy that wanted to buy my rig that way is still trying to buy other rigs. Most of the QTH folks are too smart to fall for it.

73

[kb9sne]

This is why i will not deal with paypal. they costed me a 15 dollar overdraft fee and a 15 payment to stop payment on them when they tried to draw out extra money out of my acct..

[R.L.]

perhaps I over-reacted, but, after the 3rd. request for a fedex tracking # was ignored, I filed the report .
Yes, derek has his money, and I received the shipment.
I consider it a common courtsey to furnish the buyer with a tracking #.
R.L WC5E

[KA9FOX]

You might think it is common courtesy to supply a fedex tracking number within a week of sending payment, but did you guys agree on this ahead of time (that he would, indeed, supply you with this tracking number as part of your sale agreeement)???

I think over-reaction is putting it mildly. You could have at least given Derek a call or just been a little patient.... good grief, we are talking about $50 !!! Now Derek has to deal with the PayPal folks... who knows what kind of trouble you caused him.

What if he had a sudden emergency -- maybe a death in the family? Or maybe his computer fried and he wasn't getting your e-mails while the PC was being fixed. You just never know what is going on in the other person's life. Making a phone call is a good idea... or just being a little patient maybe?

- Scott KA9FOX

[KE3GK]

I can understand RL's overreaction to a point. I do think that RL pulled the trigger a bit too fast though. But it looks like the deal has finished successful.

With all the bum deals that happen, it's normal to get a bit paranoid.

Usually what happens is we find something of a deal and jump into it before we check the person out. After sending the money, then, we start looking into the person's history. Sometimes, it's a calm relief, sometimes, it's panic time.

It is nothing but courtesy and respect for our ham radio brothers and sisters, that we keep them informed every step of the way during a deal though.

[KA9FOX]

I understand that we SHOULD keep the other party informed as to the status of a deal (When you get the money, when you expect it to ship, when you actually shipped it and by what method, tracking numbers or confirmation numbers, etc.). This is common courtesy. Agreed 100%!!

BUT... s**t happens. Family emergency... computer crash... there are many reasons why someone might not answer their e-mail for a FEW DAYS.

I agree that with some of the negative feedback K7FF has received, combined with a lack of communication, might make me nervous, but I certainly would not even contemplate filing a PayPal Fraud complaint within 7 DAYS of sending payment... I can't even think of a situation that would warrant that kind of action, can you? I equate filing a Fraud complaint to contacting the police... you just don't do that unless you are absolutely sure you have been defrauded.

- Scott KA9FOX

[KE3GK]

You have 30 days (I think) to file a complaint with Paypal/Ebay ... I would think patience up to 20-25 days, to at least receive an email would be ample time before filing a complaint.

I have read a lot of emails and complaints concerning deals that either seemed to be going bad, or did go bad. In most cases, there is always an excuse. Most common, death in family/important family matters, out of town on business, and system crash. Were they real ? You never know. But to extend the courtesy of believing the other person is warranted.

In some cases, the person that has the money or equipment, has never been heard from again. Email bounces back, phone is disconnected. Who knows what happened there ?

I've been lucky so far ... about 100 purchases of radio stuff online, only 2 went sour but I was refunded my money. Both on Ebay.

Courtesy on both sides is called for at all times.

[wr0t]

Sorry guys but I cannot hold up for FF in any way after some of the stunts he tried to pull on me. If I sell something, I send the tracking number as soon as I get it and do it reg. mail so I know if it was read.

Computer crash ????? How many guys have only one PC ???? I doubt very many. I have 2 laptops and 2 desktops and two alt email services should I ever need them...

You can pick up a email machine at almost any fest for about 20.00 or so........ So lack of civil communication by a seller is a sure tip off there is a problem.....

[KA9FOX]

So... WR0T, to be clear... you think it is OK for someone to file a FRAUD COMPLAINT with PayPal, if they do not receive the item, or the tracking number, within 7 days of submitting payment? Or is it OK only if the seller is K7FF?

- Scott KA9FOX

[wr0t]

Scott, I don't think a fraud complaint should be filed until 14 days have passed. It is the sellers responsibility to communicate the status of the sale and shipment no matter what medium he has to use. Phone, mail, email, overnight mail, smoke signals or whatever and it should be done at once.

There is NO REASON to delay shipping for a week or so after receiving the money unless it is a check that has to clear first,

When this is going on, it raises a red flag that maybe something is not on the up and up.

I know a couple of years ago, I wound up in the hospital for 2 weeks and there were things that I needed to ship. I called the people myself and told them what was going on and offered to refund their money if they wanted or wait about a week to ship. Only one guy wanted his money back so I had it wire transferred to his bank.

So, if you are going to be a "seller" you have the responsibility to keep your buyer informed. If it costs you a buck or two, too bad....

Only thing I ever got from FF was nasty emails and bad language.

[KA9FOX]

Scott, I don't think a fraud complaint should be filed until 14 days have passed. It is the sellers responsibility to communicate the status of the sale and shipment no matter what medium he has to use. Phone, mail, email, overnight mail, smoke signals or whatever and it should be done at once.

I agree about the communication. However, I think 14 days is a little swift for a fraud complaint... but a whole lot better than 7 days !!

There is NO REASON to delay shipping for a week or so after receiving the money unless it is a check that has to clear first, When this is going on, it raises a red flag that maybe something is not on the up and up.

K7FF did not wait a week. If you reread this thread, you will see the K7FF shipped the item the NEXT DAY after the payment was received WC5E got the item 8 days after payment was sent.

Second of all, and I am not making excuses for the lack of communication by K7FF, but I can think of PLENTY of reasons why someone might have to delay shipping for a week or so. It's not right, and it's not common, but sometimes things just do happen. It doesn't mean that there is FRAUD. Guys, consider the word FRAUD -- K7FF was accused of FRAUD because he didn't e-mail the guy for a few days? He received the money, he shipped the next day. Come on.

I know a couple of years ago, I wound up in the hospital for 2 weeks and there were things that I needed to ship. I called the people myself and told them what was going on and offered to refund their money if they wanted or wait about a week to ship. Only one guy wanted his money back so I had it wire transferred to his bank.

You did all this from the hospital? Wow. I wonder how many people that are taken to the hospital (or are with a family member who is hospitalized) remember to bring along a list of phone numbers for the people they sold stuff to, to let them know that there stuff will be a bit delayed? You are sure setting the bar quite high to be a seller these days.

So, if you are going to be a "seller" you have the responsibility to keep your buyer informed. If it costs you a buck or two, too bad.....

Yep, agreed... good communications solves a lot of problems.

Only thing I ever got from FF was nasty emails and bad language.

This belongs in the K7FF Feedback section, not here.

73 - Scott KA9FOX

[wr0t]

Scott, where I go, one of my laptops goes, even to the hospital. Everything is mirrored on all PC's in real time.

As to what I got from FF, it was listed in various feedbacks and I caught nothing but greif over it. He is sure well loved.

What amazes me is how a fraud complaint could have been filed so fast with Epay and Payrip. I have had to file several and they would not even accept a complaint until 21 days had passed. This sounds like a bit of smoke.

[k4kk]

I'm not a nit picker but I'm going to pick some nits!!

The topic of this thread is "WC5E". Yet, that individual is mentioned exactly one time. If it were me, I would be terribly pissed that when anyone did a search for me it would show up with 3 pages of "complaints."

If it is about FF, use/start a thread for FF; if it's about zeroT, use or start a thread; if it's about callsigns, try that one; give WC5E a break!

Thank you, Dick Bash!!!! In addition to no skills and no code, we now have no literacy.

[KA9FOX]

K4KK... nearly this entire thread is about whether it was right or wrong for WC5E to file fraud charges against K7FF, simply because he had not heard from him in a week. I will try to clean up this thread regarding other references.

- Scott KA9FOX

[w5zzq]

That is exactly why I don't fool with PayPal at all.

[wr0t]

Hay KK,, Who the heck is Dick Bash?????? I have been licensed since before you were born and I never heard of him.......

[k4kk]

<<<"...Who the heck is Dick Bash??????">>>
In 1980 Dick Bash published a series of books titled "The Final Exam" that became known as "Bash Books." They essentially were the question pool from the FCC. There was a book for each license class. They were even color coded. Until that time, the questions were not published and tests were administered by the FCC. The failure rate was close to 70% and obtaining an amateur radio license required actual knowledge. He fought the FCC and the ARRL (they refused to advertise his books) but the tide turned. Now it is common place to know the questions and answers prior to testing since the FCC publishes its own pool of questions. No knowledge is required, only memorization of answers. He is still a licensed amateur radio operator (KL7IHP) and active as far as I know.

<<<"I have been licensed since before you were born and I never heard of him...">>>
According to your own claim, you were first licensed in 1956. That is not before I was born. The fact that you claim you never heard of him speaks volumes. Are you sure you aren't familiar with his publications?

[wr0t]

KK, I do stand corrected, I thought the FCC data base listed your birthdate as 1956, I see it is really 1951. Must be my old eyes.

Nope, never heard of Bash or his books. I am very proud to say that I took every since license exam except for Novice before the FCC in KC, MO under the eyes of CB Plummer. ( no he had nothing to do with the "chicken Band"