Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

This is the place to discuss the Classifieds ( Please be constructive.
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Paypal as a seller

Post by NR7J » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:19 pm

kg8lb wrote:Correction: The header says :

Post subject:" Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders"

It is all relative. The scams perpetrated using Paypal compared to the other methods. The OP opines that money orders are "safer" . I do not agree. Read the threads regarding scams and frauds. Money orders are a favorite medium of payment. Furthermore, from all appearances there are far more scams perpetrated by sellers than by buyers. Of course the scamming seller claiming to be the "victim" is nothing new.

The OP here, NR7J has blasted Paypal in numerous threads, dug up old threads and made questionable assertions. In his opening statement for example he claims that Paypal returns funds to the buyer's account while they investigate the case. I have never seen that happen . In the case of an item return; The funds are returned AFTER the investigation and AFTER proof of return delivery .This type of comment could call his own credibility into question.
All of this and he has not identified the real cause of the problem , the claimed "scamming " buyer. That leaves us only with the seller's side of the story , warts and all.

My reply regarding sellers and buyers was a direct, specific response to your "topic specific" comment. :wink:

As you say Al, do your homework. I've done my own.
This is a warning about Paypal as a seller and not against a buyer.

I'm going to say this again. "When you sell an item and use Paypal, the buyer can file a false claim, in that instant YOUR FUNDS will be placed in the buyer's account and held during the investigation.
The buyer can swap parts from the item then return it to you. The seller will get a broken item and the buyer will get a refund"

If you don't understand just go away, please.

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Post by kg8lb » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:11 am

But I do understand. I read you like a book at your first posting.
Your post started with myopic whining regarding a claim that you had been scammed. You are no longer using Paypal. Got it.
Others have chimed in with other opinions that may not be in line with yours..Fair Game . That is what PUBLIC forums are all about...Get it ?

Once again however, you got it wrong. In the event of an investigation funds are not returned to the seller until the investigation is concluded and proof of delivery arrives.

Once again, for you . There is no . real perfect system . Life is full of compromises. Paypal provides a far better compromise than Money orders when dealing with strangers especially.

Since life is compromise upon compromise you win sometimes and sometimes you lose. Some sellers desrve to lose. The old send out junk then claim the buyer switched parts is a very common ploy among sellers. More common than sellers being scammed by buyers most likely.

There are more fraudulent sellers than fraudulent buyers . As such decisions may favor the buyer more often. Scamming buyers very often claim that they were scammed, nothing new it?

Again, Yours is a one side of the story situation. You seem to target Paypal very freely and openly. Which begs the question..Why have you not revealed the identity of your buyer ? Really, YOU claim you were scammed by the BUYER.. Get it ?

Or is it you don't really want us to hear "The Rest of the Story " ?

Otherwise heed your own "advice"

"If you don't understand just go away, please."

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did you mean "buyer" ?

Post by NR7J » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:33 am

kg8lb wrote: Once again however, you got it wrong. In the event of an investigation funds are not returned to the seller until the investigation is concluded and proof of delivery arrives.

"While Paypal investigates, the funds are taken from the Seller's account and placed into the Buyer's account and HELD until a claim specialist makes a decision."

Would you like to make a $10K bet on who's right on this one ?
We can use Paypal.

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Post by kg8lb » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:47 am

What I said was correct .
In the event of a dispute ; Paypal places a HOLD on the funds. You are wrong, the funds are on HOLD but NOT in the buyer's account. The buyer has no access to those funds.The seller may also have access denied . That is why the funds are said to be on HOLD !

In some cases, the seller may have already taken out the funds.

After the determination is made and only after are the funds dispersed . In cases where the goods are returned to the seller, funds are not released until the delivery is confirmed.

Not a perfect system . Still, I would much rather pay someone like you with Paypal than a money order. Nothing personal .

Now for your response to my other comments ? EI: Why are you not here to identify the buyer in question ?? That is a glaring omission on your part . If your story is accurate you would be doing far more good here to identify the real scammer than to blame Paypal. Unless of course you would rather maintain your monopoly on information and deny us the other side of the story ...for whatever reasons.


"While Paypal investigates, the funds are taken from the Seller's account and placed into the Buyer's account and HELD until a claim specialist makes a decision." ...yada yada

Yada yada ...I'm going to say this again. "When you sell an item and use Paypal, the buyer can file a false claim, in that instant YOUR FUNDS will be placed in the buyer's account ....Yada yada...


Held, yes, "Buyers account"? ...NOT !

Not everyone who hates Paypal is a scammer but most scammers deplore Paypal. Money orders, checks and cash are by far the preferred means of payment for the scammers that lurk about. Of course the scammers like to play the "victim" role too.

Would I bet you ? No more than I would send you a money order.

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Post by KE3W » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:57 am

You better be careful NR7J - you better let this PayPal hatred go before you have a heart attack.

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Post by k9vt » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:55 am

Since the beginning there have been many pro's and con's to paypal. My only complaint with ebay or paypal are the rising costs. As far as scams or rip offs were given a brain to use. Do the homework and follow your gut intinct. I have been an active seller on ebay since 2001 and only one instance of a switch. Yes i was pissed but averaging out all my transations it became very small. Ebay is currently aggressively looking for large dollar sellers not the small ham community individuals. To me paypal is just a convenience. As a seller giving the buyer as many ways to pay is an advantage. Its unfortunate there is NO more credibility to being called a ham as there was years ago..

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Post by kd9mf » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:03 pm

i had that happen to me.the radio really did have a trouble i didnt know about, so i had it fixed for my buyer and all was well. i got my funds replaced. its a good idea, it protects all involved. i was a bit bent out of shape. but it ended up ok. i had the buyer send the rig in for reapir to avvid and i told cliff to bill me.
so i know if i get a bad deal, i will also be protected.

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Post by kg8lb » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:08 pm

Good story, thank you . Exactly correct.

Don, I just added you to the list of people I trust well enough to send a money order to.
OK, So where are the filters now ?

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Post by kd4lyh » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:19 pm

N9LCD wrote:
The problem is not PayPal. PayPal is what it is.
PrayPal is crap. Been with Ebay since 1999. Thats another story. Wait till you sell something that is known working and PayPal wont release your funds or jerk the money out of your bank account. Its not if its when it will happen. Been there had it happen to me and lost over $1500.00. Dont expect any help from Paypal. Been many class action lawsuits against Paypal. Generally most people are honest but theres that select few that will try and scam you.

1. Use a prepaid credit/debit card and register it with Paypal . Some of these companies provide an account # and routing #. Use that as your primary checking.
2 Dont keep anything in there other than a small balance. As soon as someone pays you thru Paypal go to the nearest atm and for a small transaction fee withdraw the funds. I then take the atm cash and deposit it in my regular checking account not affiliated with Paypal.This is how I do it when dealing with Praypal.

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Re: Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Post by wa9jyg » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:53 pm

Once Ebay took them it was the start of PayPal going down hill! I have heard of many people getting burned like you said by PayPal! I switched to buying and selling with USPS Money Order only! I think I am safe buying and seller is safe if I send my money using USPS Money Order!

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Re: Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Post by kg8lb » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:03 am

by K4ICL » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:35 am

Please identify a few of the "many". You have my undivided attention."
KG8LB response:
Pity that you had to take down the feedback pages . The negative reports for sellers in those pages spoke for themselves . There could be pages of negative reports regarding sellers with very poor feedback . Laced within those pages were the people who may have had a decent experience with that same rogue seller . The implication being "If I had no problem ; there was no problem" . The numerous bad dealings with others mattered not by that person's reasonong (lack of reasoning) .

Yes , there were many people right here on QTH that did wrong after having been given decent reports over time . I reported very honestly my dealings with one of those folks . That report was fllowed by a plethora of similar negatives for that same person .

If not for Paypal , that scammer would have walked away with a lot of "other people's money" . He always claimed to be the actual victim and also bashed Paypal as unfair to him . No surprise there ! He was right ..the World was wrong .

The more a seller bashes Paypal , the more wary of him I become . When you send a Money Order to someone you become nearly powerless . He has your money , the goods and all the time in the world have only hope .
Be very careful when sending US Postal Money Orders to anyone that demands them over Paypal . Look at reports from sleers claiming to have been scammed with Paypal help with a very critical eye ...Then play it safe ! Paypal is far safer than Money Orders . Scammers prefer Money Orders 100 to 1 !
Last edited by kg8lb on Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
OK, So where are the filters now ?

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Re: Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Post by hogpatch » Sun May 19, 2013 6:25 pm

Yes occasionally you do get crooks on ebay and paypal, just like you do on EHAM, QRZ and QTH. Paypal will hold money until you resolve an issue with the buyer or seller. I have sold items on ebay for over 5 years and have only ran into 2 crooks and one person who thought he could repair electronic items. document everything you sell with pictures and be sure you write your add correctly. this way they cant say you misrepresented the item. keep all emails that are written to you and your answers to them. only email thrue ebay when selling or buying. I now have started security marking items that have removeable parts, I don't tell how I security mark the item but I do inform them that it is done. I test everything I sell and put a video of it on Youtube for proof. Stores have the same problems but they can usually afford to give refunds. always tell the buyer return shipping is at their cost. now if you sell or buy on these internet sights and if the item is defective there is a good chance you wont be able to return the item, especially if the seller is a crook. Generally most hams I have dealt with are honest but most of them think their item is worth way much more than it is. I have bought a ten tec Orion from a QTH seller and was lucky but I will never spend that kind of money again from a person I don't know. its to risky. when buying, do your homework, follow the guidelines on QTH. BUYER BEWARE. same for the seller.

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Re: Is my choice not to use Paypal ever again.

Post by Tallman » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:09 pm

kg8lb wrote: I am very happy that when I had occasion to deal with folks like N3DG that I had indeed used Paypal. There have been other occasions where Paypal has come thru for me .

There is no real , perfect system yet. Comparing the successful scams using checks and money orders that are reported here on QTH to the would be scams that Paypal has foiled makes Paypal my first choice.

Over 1000 transactions and Paypal has worked very well. Scammers hate it . That gives me a lot of reason to like it.

If , by odd chance I bump into the rare , REAL parts swapping buyer I can shrug it off as Paypal has already done quite well for me,

In fact , I paid for a Ranger 3 weeks ago and the seller dropped off the planet. Had I used a money order it would be a real chore to get the funds back from this would be thief in Georgia. Paypal makes it all a lot safer.

Again, not a perfect world. But Paypal has thwarted many scammers , money orders are scammers best fiends .
I have had nothing but good experiences with PayPal. The scammers hate it. I know people that work with the United States Secret Service and they keep me up to date on all of the latest scams going on with the internet. The Postal money order is quite frequently counterfeited. They go and purchase a money order for five dollars, scan it into their computer and change the dollar amount to whatever they want. Unless you check it with the post office and verify the dollar amount you are left holding an empty bag. No cash, no product.
If I can't buy it with PayPal that tells me there is something wrong on that end of the deal. One guy told me he could not accept PP because he did not have a checking account. I told him PP could cut him a check and he still said no. A few weeks later my friends at the USSS told me about this guy here locally that got busted for wire-line fraud and counterfeiting postal money orders. The same guy I had been dealing with. "PayPal forever" for me thank you very much.
I had a bait and switch scam pulled on me once. They had pictures of this motorcycle for sale for a reasonable price. It was listed as being in excellent condition and you could ride it home. I drove to Indianapolis with the wife to get the bike. when I got there to take it home, it was not even the same brand. It had changed from Kawasaki to Yamaha. The Yamaha was beat to crap and did not even run. I took a bunch of pictures of the bike including the VIN. I called PayPal right then and there and they helped me get my money back. I know some buyers will do the part swapping bit, but from the sellers you don't always get what was promised. I save every picture and every email when dealing with sellers and buyers
If you've done your research and you still have to ask questions, you probably still won't understand the answer. Kilo Kilo 4 Romeo Hotel Foxtrot

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Re: Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Post by AE1CT » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:29 am


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Re: Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Post by kg8lb » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:27 am

From what I have seen sellers being scammed by buyers is exceedingly rare . The old claim of having been scammed by a buyer is pretty common among the worst of sellers . Sellers who send up the red flag by demanding a Postal Money Order generally don't even deserve consideration .
As a seller I would rather take my chances of being "scammed" by a buyer , than try to blame my refusal to accept Paypal on having been somehow injured by a buyer . My ebay rating is 100% Positive at 1018 and that means well over 2000 ebay transactions along with countless other transactions on QTH , QRZ , The old Green Pages and trader nets . In all of those I have only had ONE scam attempt by a fellow in 4 land . It was handled easily . Sorry but if I don't know you and you refuse Paypal , you wouldn't have a chance to refuse the sale as I would not look twice at your offering .

From what I have seen over the last 25 years , bad sellers probably outnumber bad buyers by about 999 to 1 ! I don't mind affording the buyer the protection and convenience that paypal affords . Paypal has put right some of the worst sellers , sellers that have been caught red handed in outright fraud . Almost every one of them responded by claiming they were the victim of a scamming seller . I would NEVER join them by whining about a dishonest buyer ! I always offer a 100% return policy and it hasn't hurt me yet .
Refusing to use a MONEY ORDER strips the scamming seller of his strongest tool .
OK, So where are the filters now ?

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Re: Paypal is terrible. Time to start using money orders.

Post by ke7uxe » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:37 pm

I accept PayPal and pay the fees. I believe I can ask a bit more when the person buying my item has some protection. I have never been ripped off. I describe my items carefully and accurately. I also specify "as is no refund" on things like tube radios where an inexperienced person can easily break it.

I pay with PayPal and not by money order. Too many of my friends have sent money and gotten nothing. The police and postal inspectors will do nothing to help. If a seller does not accept Paypal I assume he has something to hide. By the way, my brother has had two Paypal claims decided in his favor and he was the seller.

Even on this site I have seen licensed hams claiming "unable to test". While this is remotely possible it is highly unlikely. Even a ham in an antenna restricted area could very easily ask another ham to let him test a radio.

Just to be clear, Paypal is no different from any major credit card. They also will service disputed charges.

So I like PayPal and in all but the rarest cases insist on using it.

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