Amateur operator GREED!

Just what it says -- this is the place for any discussions not related to Buying, Selling and Trading ham gear. The discussion must be related to Ham Radio.
VE6ZM
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Location: Alberta

Amateur operator GREED!

Post by VE6ZM » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:11 pm

Well I am going to say what I am sure many Hams visiting this and other swap sites are thinking. Why the hell are most of you guys selling USED, sometimes VERY USED equipment for 80-100% of new prices. Ham radio is on the decline for several reasons one of them is the access to AFFORDABLE equipment. Anyone asking 90% for a well used piece of equipment should be ashamed of themselves. They are doing themselves and more importantly the Ham community a huge disservice. I have been into ham for 30 years and it was not always like this. I can honestly say I am disgusted and the level of greed exercised by a growing number of hams. Anyone thinking of buying used equipment should do a little research and you may find that MANY of the people selling used equipment on this site are asking almost new prices. And if they say it is still under warranty, you better check that out to because the manufacturer may not transfer warranties. So is it worth it to save $50 dollars on a piece of equipment selling for just $680 new? Example, an FT 857D which sells for $680 (with the separation kit) new if you look around, while some on the site are/were asking almost the same price and the radio is 2 or more years old! If you want your equipment to be worthless in 10 years keep the prices high so no up and coming hams can afford equipment and not get into the hobby. Unless you are selling Antique collector gear chances are the price has gone DOWN over the last few years. Why? Depreciation for one and chances are that your 2, 3, 4 or 5 year old gear has been improved! Shame on you and you know who you are!

Thanks
Dan
VE6ZM
Last edited by VE6ZM on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lasernerd KE7VDP
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Post by lasernerd KE7VDP » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:00 pm

Right on the money!

Thank you VE6ZM!

I am still waiting to get a deal on a 2 band base transceiver,
than i will finaly go get my ham license.
I have my eye on a few,but when they pop up here they are only maybe slightly less than new!

K0CRX
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:54 pm

Post by K0CRX » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:48 pm

I understand the point you're trying to make, Dan, but the buyer determines the sale price, not the seller.

VE6ZM
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Location: Alberta

GREEDY HAMS

Post by VE6ZM » Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:49 pm

I disagree, the purchaser actually sets price. If there is no demand prices go down. The whole thing is that the True Spirit of Amateur Radio (as far as I am concerned) is to serve the community while enjoying the hobby. Hams have gotten greedy when they are asking almost new prices for items that are years old. Now I am not talking about Collins collectors gear here, I am writing about gear that is 4 or 5 years old that someone paid less that what they are asking now. What I am suggesting to hams considering purchasing used look around if you can find the same stuff new for a few dollars more it’s worth it. I am truly mortified by the lack of community exercised by these cheap self serving people. These hams are cutting not only their own throats but mine, yours and every other hams throat for a buck!!

Thank you
VE6ZM

hamradman
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Post by hamradman » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:07 pm

Dan (VE6ZM),
If you don't like the price then don't buy it. Why do you care what other people are paying for used equipment? K0CRX is right about the buyer setting the price. If someone has a price on something that nobody wants to pay then the seller will reduce the price to a point that will sell it.
So if you have a used radio that has been selling for lets say $1000 but you feel because its 15 years old it should sell for less then you would let it go for less? To me you sound like one of those people who everything for nothing.

VE6ZM
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Location: Alberta

Post by VE6ZM » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:19 pm

You guys are obviously missing the point. What is Amateur Radio about!? Do you believe in it? If you do then you must recognize we need youthful, interested hams to continue the hobby! Keeping equipment affordable is but one method of assisting to accomplish that. BTW if I think the price is high on something believe me I will NOT buy. I believe it is completely insulting that some hams are asking prices that are above what it is new. Some hams do not have the capacity or resources to check prices. Example; seniors on fixed incomes & new hams. New hams don't know what they are looking at hence the higher chance of getting ripped off! Some hams should exercise a greater understanding of the big picture for Amateur Radio. I am simply illustrating what I am 100% certain many hams are thinking!

Warmest Regards
Dan
VE6ZM

lhk0pd
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Post by lhk0pd » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:37 pm

Well i agree that what a couple of others have said DAN and that is the buyer set's the price. Were in a free market and supply, quality and demand creates cost to the consumer.I've saw many radio's i would have liked to afford but the price was beyond my humble mean's. There is a old saying that maybe you've not heard and that is one man's junk is another man's treasure or you can reverse it. I do not believe the cost of used radio's is keeping any one from becoming a Ham as it's been my experience that if you want some thing bad enough you'll find away to get it. I've seen more radio's than not priced at a fair price assuming the radio is in the condition described. If for example i offer a radio for sale and you think i'm asking to much then make a offer who know's what might happen. Dan your thought's are respected but i humbly disagree with them as in all honesty they seem a little to much like socialism.......
Larry Huff K0pd

VE6ZM
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Post by VE6ZM » Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:59 pm

Wow! I’m a socialist because I don’t think ANYONE should pay new prices for used equipment! Well the next time you guys go buy a car/truck make sure it has a few thousand miles on it then pay pricing equal to the new one! And as far as being the kind of guy that expects something for nothing is concerned well that’s a stretch, I expect to pay what its worth; if it’s used I expect to be ASKED to pay a used price! I think I struck a cord with you guys because you are probably OVER pricing your equipment at the expense of a new ham or a senior on a fixed income. Gentlemen I have done all kinds of home work on this and I can site example after example of hams trying to get the same prices as new equipment. It is insulting to have some one post a price only to find I can find the very same article new for the same price. I hope everyone reading this forum looks long and hard at the pricing on the swap n shops before committing themselves.

Warmest regards
Dan
VE6ZM

NR9R
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Post by NR9R » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:17 pm

I don't mind the phenomenon in one respect. It means that I can buy a piece of equipment for $1000 and sell it a few years later for $950 within an hour of posting the ad. It is worth the small lost if it means I don't have to spend all week bartering with people over email.

On the other hand, used prices are interesting....I think the wider marketplace of the internet and overall decline in electronics prices has had an affect. There are transceivers that were sold for $1200 to $1500 ten years ago that are sold for $300 to $400 on the used market. Today there are better performing entry level transceivers that can be purchased for only a few hundred dollars more. This is why you can buy a new IC-718 for $550 or an FT-450 for $625 and resell them a few years later for 90% of the price. Because 90% of those prices is pretty close to the going rate for antiquated equipment.

This will continue for as long as people are willing to pay $400 for a TS-830S or $350 for an FT-101E. In some respects one would expect to be able to purchase such transceivers for under $200.

ar

lhk0pd
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Post by lhk0pd » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:16 am

Dan i did not mean to infer your a socialist but what i'm saying is if certain prices must be set because one is on fixed income or a kid that to me smell's of socialism. You mean to say if i have a radio say for example a 830gold edition in mint condition and recently gone through and i'm only asking $450.00 and a person on fixed income show's interest does that mean i should say sell it to him for$350.00 and yet have other's that are willing to pay the $450.00 be ignored.That is the impression you gave in your original statement and to me that is socialism,which to me is taking from the haves and giving to the have not's. I personally have sold thing's in fact almost alway's at a loss but not because i'm not greedy but because i'm not in the buissiness to show a profit in order to pay the over head. But mostly because i saw something else i want to try and this is how i get most of the money. So cheerio and enjoy the thread you've started as i enjoy reading others comment's.....
Larry Huff K0pd

WA5JAV
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Greed

Post by WA5JAV » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:53 am

Greed by individuals is moot compared to greed by the new equipment manufactures. Why would any company manufacture a $25,000.00 amateur radio? Greed. Why did the FCC farm out most all amateur radio decisions to the ARRL? Lazy. Why did the ARRL support no code? Greed pressure brought on by greedy manufactures. Many hams are on fixed incomes and/or handicapped. They can't afford new radios as priced. Yes, there are less expensive rigs, but still too expensive. Nobody needs all those whistles and lights on a rig. Before too long, only the wealthy will be able to afford the hobby.

NR9R
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Post by NR9R » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:23 am

lhuffk0pd wrote: You mean to say if i have a radio say for example a 830gold edition in mint condition and recently gone through and i'm only asking $450.00 and a person on fixed income show's interest does that mean i should say sell it to him for$350.00 and yet have other's that are willing to pay the $450.00 be ignored
I don't think that's what is being implied at all. You're using an example of a collectors item that may show appreciation.

A closer example: You have an IC-730 that has been sitting in your closet for 10 years. It's basic functions work but the pre-amp is intermittent and potentiometers need cleaning.

Do you maximize your selling price on QTH.COM or ebay by stating: "Worked great when in storage but being sold AS-IS," or do you decide on a reasonable price based on what you would pay for such a transceiver--say under $200?

I think the criticism of this posting focuses on the former being the norm.

KC0UKR
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Location: Missouri

Post by KC0UKR » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:34 pm

Exactly why is this topic in the Feedback Forum?
Is this about any specific Ham?

lhk0pd
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Post by lhk0pd » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:57 pm

OK maybe i read more into Dan's comment's than was there but i still stand by most of my remark's. I think the one thing missing in this is the dollar is weaker than 10,20 or 30 years ago. I recall for example 10 years ago when i could buy a KenWood 530 for $350.00 easily. I could list other radio's that are in Dollar's selling for the same amount as 10 years ago but in fact because of the dollars decline are actually selling for less.As for greed among mfg there is way to much for this discussion to take into account what cost goes into a product. Any way that's my final thought's and i'm sticking to it.....73's Larry
Larry Huff K0pd

VE6ZM
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Post by VE6ZM » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:18 pm

I will address a few questions; I am not talking about any one specific person in this thread. I am speaking of MANY hams. I can remember, vividly, to a time when if one were a ham operator they were honest, trusted, served the community…it was an honor to be a ham. Now there are countless posts about hams ripping other hams off, I have to compare prices to make sure I am not paying new prices for equipment that is sometimes 2, 3, 4, 5 five years old, fewer and fewer are serving the community. I am not poor; I am not looking for something for nothing, I am not a socialist (and if you knew me you would really laugh at that one) as implied. I am an AMATUEUR RADIO OPERATOR serving my community, passing on my knowledge (which by the way includes my SENSE of community) to up and coming hams. I have donated my EXPENSIVE ham radio equipment to Boy Scouts and alike to ensure the survival of Amateur Radio not to mention it assists in keeping kids out of trouble by occupying their minds. Does anyone reading this thread want amateur radio to survive? Affordable sometimes FREE equipment is but one way to assist in ensuring this. I am making no apologies for any of my comments here; there are others who feel as I do. Read their comments. When was the last time anyone reading this thread did something for the betterment of Amateur Radio, their community? Think back!

Thank you
Daniel W. Doherty
VE6ZM

K0CRX
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An example

Post by K0CRX » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:06 pm

Here's a good example of what Dan describes (QTH listing #670169). The good news is that this radio simply will not sell.

VE6ZM
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Location: Alberta

Post by VE6ZM » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:12 pm

Mike that is an EXCELLENT example! Why because I do not know this radio at all and I do not know what is should be selling for. A new Ham comes alone and wants to buy an HF radio, he sees an FT 101 for $600. He doesn't know the difference so he buys it with the money he has saved. Here are another few examples gents & ladies, I have blocked the guys name.

Here is a guy in Canada that is selling his 857D for more than a new one costs. Here is where you can buy one new for $680, now remember the Canadian dollar is trading for close to the US. Some times a little more sometime a little less. http://www.hamcity.com/Detail.aspx?ID=320

VE7*** BRENT b.c ****@shaw.ca or 250-497-**** MAY 26 /08
- Yaesu ft 857d. used very lightly. as new with all that came as new. box,manual,power cord,mic,sep cables,etc. 700$ split shipping
Used very little or not, I can buy a new one for LESS money!

Here is another one from QTH, listing # 669938 a USED GPS for $475 when a NEW one costs $477.44 from http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-StreetPilo ... B000BWSQ2G and that was on my first search, who knows how much cheaper I could have found it had I really looked.


There is example after example of this and it is really disappointing to see hams practicing this

Thanks

Dan

w8jn
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Stupid???

Post by w8jn » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:55 pm

Dan,
With all due respect, your comment shows a total lack of understanding of the free market system. Some people look at a glass and say its half full, some say its half empty and I take the practical approach.... the glass is twice as big as it needs to be!!! Lets say I place a 706mk2g on qth. The going rate for a 9+ rig is $600- $750 and the supply exceeds demand. If I want one for $599, all I have to do is wait. If I list my 706mk2g for sale for $1300 ($400 more than list price, one of two thing will happen. 1) It will not sell or 2) some really stupid person will buy it and shame on them for not researching the price before buying. All they have to do is go to EHAM and search "solds" to see "fair market value".
We have one ham who currently WALKED OFF WITH hundreds of FREE Icom brochures while at Dayton. He is now auctioning the free brochures on Ebay. We have another ham who regularly advertises on this web site and in his ad says that his "almost new al-1500 sells for $3800 and you can have it for the fantastic price of $3200". What a crock of sheet. They are new for $3200 and you can find them used for $1999.
Is it my job to educate my buyer? I dont think so, however if you look at my feedback you will see lots of happy people.
CAVEAT EMPTOR pal. If you get cheated or overcharged, chances are its your fault. If you are cheated or overcharged, Roll up a newspaper, hold it high above your head and quickly smack yourself three times while chanting.. i am a stupid ham... i am a stupid ham... i am a stupid ham! Have you seen how the Canadian government protects its citizens with medical coverage?? Wow... Its the worst system in the world. Do you want them controling used ham gear prices? All of our brothers up north come to the Cleveland Clinic for care, to get away from big brother in Canada.
best 73 Paul wi8jn... loving free markets and capitalism

VE6ZM
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Location: Alberta

Post by VE6ZM » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:15 pm

Paul

Your comments have validated my point regarding SOME ham operators, thank you.

Regards
Daniel W. Doherty

w8jn
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brochures and stupid people

Post by w8jn » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:18 pm

Dan,
Thanks for the reply. Someone "auctions off a FREE" brochure. Another ham lies about the list price of an amp in an attempt to inflate the price of his used amp. Are they "BAD GUYS" , or is the buyer foolish for not educating himself. I say, government is not there to be our mothers and fathers. I am not there to "protect" foolish (otherwise intelligent) people. Again CAVEAT EMPTOR !
73 paul
ps... i didnt buy the brochure or the inflated priced al-1500, did you? If you did, shame on you and congratulations to the seller for finding a foolish (otherwise intelligent) buyer, willing to part with his money unwisely!!

KC0UKR
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Post by KC0UKR » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:40 pm

Way to miss my ponit there Dan!

You are hardly the first one to bring this up and despite your "Good Intentions" I am merely pointing out that this has no place here in the Feedback Forum.

Oh wait,I notice that you have not placed this rant only here but in two other forum as well?

There have been many threads regarding the insane pricing for used gear.
Just last night I saw some guy listing 2 power supplies that he says are $99.00 new for $20.00 less than that,and they were broken!

I deal with them by going forward to the next listing.

Have you ever actually spoken to another Ham before?
I challenge you to get in a room with 10 Hams anywhere and see if you can spot even 1 "Normal" one.
We are a crazy lot and that is part of what makes this hobby fun.
I have not been a Ham as long as many but I am just as involved as any and just as much of service.

What makes you any different than another Zealot who goes on and on about his perceived notion of the way things ought to be?

I consider myself fairly active in service to others both as a radio amateur and a human yet when I list something for sale I like to get what the prevailing market will bring.
Does that make me a less humble person worthy of judgement from you?

Just who do you think you are?

Go point your finger in the mirror and see what you see.

Ed

w8jn
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yessssss

Post by w8jn » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:47 pm

way to go ed!!!!!! i dont need dan trying to be my mother, my father and my keeper! i look out for me...
best 73 paul w8jn

VE6ZM
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Location: Alberta

Post by VE6ZM » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:14 pm

Gentlemen

Obviously we are not seeing eye to eye; your rational blames the victim of a crime rather than the criminal.

I wish you the best of luck with your charitable, forward thinking attitudes. It will undoubtedly advance amateur radio to a new level.

Regards
Daniel W. Doherty
VE6ZM

KC0UKR
Posts: 73
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Location: Missouri

Post by KC0UKR » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:21 pm

Dan

If you would bother to even read my posts and not "interpret " them you might realize we are not even talking about the same thing.

I understand what you are saying and how could I not since you seem to have to repeat it ad nauseum?

I blame no one except you for starting this where it does not belong,furthering it without regard toany other point of view and then patronizing the rest of us for not being as enlightened as you.

I don't misunderstand you,I just think you are ranting.

K7FF
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BLUE ON BLUE, GREED ON GREED. . .

Post by K7FF » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:21 pm

Instead, perhaps the proper term is 'pontificating'.

Locked