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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:13 pm
by GERM37
HI, IS it just me or has anyone else had this happen to them,you see a radio in one of the adds and it says mint or just like new and so you think I would like to buy this rig.
SO you email the owner and ask about what filters are installed and so on and then you ask the person if he will stand behind the radio and if it is not what is in the add or not in the shape as in the add will he be as fast to refund your money as you were to pay him for the radio.
AND that is the last time you hear from him,I don't understand if the radio is mint or just like new why will the seller not stand behind it.
I see so many rigs listed as mint or just like new and they act like it makes them mad if you ask them to stand behind their radio that is mint or just like new.
I have never sold anything in my life that I would not stand behind and I wish everyone else would do the same,or stop listing thses rigs as mint or just like new.

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:55 pm
by wa4cch
well if i have a radio that is mint or as new and i sell it to you it will be as stated when you get it .... but if you e-mail or phone me and tell me the radio doesn't work and will i give you your money back the answer is NO the reason how do i know if you hooked it up backwards or opened it up and screwed all the coils down because they were loose...... what i will tell you is send it back and if there is a problem not caused by the above and the radio hasn't been droped then we can go from there and most likely i will send you money back


Like new radios?

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:31 pm
by W4FJF
A used radio is a used radio, period. I don't care if it is two days old or twenty years old. AND the asking price should reflect that fact. Anyone who expects the retail price plus shipping on a "used" radio is a real space cadet. And, yes, the seller should absolutely stand behind the sale. If the radio is damaged during shipping, and the seller didn't buy insurance, they eat the difference no matter what. Insurance is cheap from any of the major shippers, so why not protect yourself when you sell a rig or it's accessories? If a Ham will not state in writing that he will stand behind the sale - don't bother to buy.Its possible (in my opinion) that the deal may be for a D.O.A. rig or a scam. If a seller packs a piece of equipment tight, then double boxes it, AND buys insurance, AND stands behind the sale, he will always get good feedback from the buyer. Nuff said.


Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:51 am
by n6xa
Possibly they are on a tight budget and need to get every penny out of their investment, I can understand that. But I suspect some people use it as a phrase to attract buyers, relying on the ambiguity of the word "mint" to work in their favor.

To me, MINT means as it came new from the factory. That would proabaly mean a piece of equipment someone purchased, opened, tried out briefly, and just decided not to keep it for some reason. Many sellers obviously think a radio that just hasn't been dropped or scratched real bad is "Mint."

Often, someone is asking so much for a year old radio that it makes more sense to go to one of the online radio dealers and buy a new one, with warranty!!!

I just bought a Yaesu ft817nd. Used these go for 450. Repack with 90 day warranty from Yaesu and shipping is 513 and the dealer gave me a seven day return guarantee.

Which would you buy?

"Mint" or ""'like NEW" Radios??????

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:24 am
by W4FJF
I've heard it all in my 25 years as a ham. " A little old lady used to talk on 75M on it, as she drove to church on Sundays". The minute you accept delivery, and open the box, its a "used" radio. I do not care if you never plugged it into an antenna or power supply, its USED. If you decide that you want to resell the radio, or an accessory, you have to place a fair "used" price on it. Anybody who expects to get a retail price out of a used radio is not right in the head. We used to have a "gentleman" in the area who visited estate sales of SK's, bought the stuff from the greiving widow (doing her a favor) for a fraction of its worth. Then he turned around and sold the equipment as "little used" or "well cared for", or "next to new" for several times what he paid for the stuff. We got wise to his schemes, and every hamfest he was found at, we circled his table or truck if he tailgated and told all comers the story of how he operated. After a few fistfights, and him going home with his stuff unsold, he finally gave up. So if you have a used radio, put a fair used price on it, if it has any issues, tell the buyer before he buys it. Other hams will really like you for your honesty, and you will make some great friends. Great friends are better than a few extra bucks anyday!

mint or like new

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:11 pm
by w5kc
Of course, honesty and integrity are the prime qualities needed in the sale of anything used and sight unseen. However, some folks don't possess either of those qualities. In view of that, a logical rating criteria should be established. I have dealt with a used camera dealer and they have come up with a rating system that describes the condition in terms of "normal wear and tear". Things like brassing on sharp edges or where the strap rings rubbed. Things that all camera people understand and that do not indicate abuse or misuse. In the case of rigs, that could be paint wear, scratching from being mobile or whatever. At least it would be somewhat standardized even if it is subjective.
Bottomline is as "they" say, let the buyer beware. You can never tell if the seller is a used car salesman or a gentleman ham operator. We like to think they are still out there...

mint or like new

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:02 pm
by w5kc
There is a addendum to the post about rating Amateur gear in terms that hams can relate to, it can be found on the web at:
This is also in a post on this site by K4ICL.
73 w5kc

Great Idea!!!

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:17 pm
by n6xa
Thank you W5KC, hope that QTH and other sites can post this useful rating scale and encourage people to use it. In my humble experience some, but not all, people are about 2 to 3 levels high on their items condition rating.



Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:38 pm
by kf9z
I have sold HUNDREDS of items here, there and on eBay with no issues. I will stand behind my gear to an extent...not because I am a scammer or because my gear is defective but because I can not verify your technical ability. What if you hook up the rig backwards? What if you 'open' the rig only to screw it up? Should I have to eat that sale? No. According to the poster I should stand behind it. No thanks. It will make it to your house as described and if there is a problem (and sometimes there is) I will take it on a case by case basis. You cannot generalize and make the statement you should stand behind the sale as you have no idea the ability and level of understanding the ham has who bought it.

I once sold a used car (10 year old Ford) with 70K miles on it. It was sols AS-IS and USED. I offered the buyers an afternoon to take the car to THEIR mechanic. They declined. I live in a state that has an AS-IS car warranty UNLESS you are a car dealer or wholesaler. We singed off on the car being sold AS-IS and all was fine...for 18-days. I get a call from Chicago (120-miles NORTH of me) stating the car has a bad transmission and they want their money back. I said no. 5-days later I am served with court papers. The car had 400-miles in 3 weeks put on the car. It was DRIVEN BACK to CMI by the owners! They left it in my DRIVEWAY and that is where it stayed until I called the police to have it towed. They sued me for $2500 for loss of wages, stress, child care, rental fees and gas BACK from Chicago! I offered to settle for $500 and I keep the car. They declined. I hired a lawyer and went to court. The judge found that regardless of the AS-IS paper we signed to complete the sale I told them the car ran fine prior to the sale. That could be implied as a warranty but 18-days was longer than she was inclined to give the new buyers to collect. I was found liable buy only for the towing fees of $77 and storage even though I sent a registered letter to the buyers (they never signed for it or collected the letter in more than a week and it was returned to me undelivered) stating they had three days to remove the car from my driveway. I now have a judgement against me that shows every time my credit is pulled. I had to jump through hoops to get my house refinanced as it makes no difference to the lender why the judgement was placed or the fact the judgment was paid the SAME DAY to the court. It shows on my report for another 4-years. Should I have stood behind that sale? I think radio sales are no different. They ran the hell out of the car in 18-days and then decided they no longer wanted the car when it developed a problem. The car ran fine when it left and they even test drove the car! What more can you expect on both ends?

A little off the topic

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:04 pm
by n6xa
With all due respect, you car experience is not what this topic is about. Nor is it about any particular States laws with respect to commerce occuring within that State only. This is a hamfest that covers all the US States and sometimes foreign buyers/sellers as well. No being an attorney, it seems likely that the laws of your particular State do not apply to interstate or international commerce. Or, that it is simply not their jurisdiction.

I believe the original poster, and my reply, related "primarily" to people who post adds and over rate the physical condition of their rig. There was also mention of sellers who would not guarantee a item to be as advertized, ie "Like New" or a "10", or including items such as optional filters.

My understanding of this topic is that peoples ratings of a rigs physical condition is often very arbitrary and possibly influenced by a desire to sell it at a fairly high price. This was expanded with a terrific suggestion of adopting a rating scale that defines what a 10 through 1 ratting means. So far that has only been discussed and has not adopted any such rating scale.

Did not think that any of the posts were directed at any particular person who lists items for sale. I agree that they purchaser can be at fault for destroying a good rig by not understanding how to use it or by purposefully abusing it.

Again, I am not criticizing your post, just think you may be reading too much into the topic.


Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:17 pm
by kf9z
Why do I even bother responding... The car story DOES hold true with the initial post. It was about standing behind your gear. Why is that hard to understand? Would you stand behind a radio that someone you do not know plugs in backwards or 'opens' up? How would you know what went wrong? It worked when you sent it, right? That was the point of my car story. It has EVERYTHING to do with the initial posting. I must not be that smart with college and a University job...but I got it. To each their own. Ham radio is in decline...if not in numbers in the quality of newcomers. You can flame hams know very little about radio theory and operation. It is not their fault but the fault of the ham radio 'system' that requires no understanding of radio theory or operation. Would you stand behind a fellow who buys your rig as their first and when they get it hooked up it doesn't work? How do you know what was done to it? My car post had NOTHING to do with state laws and EVERYTHING to do with protecting yourself as a SELLER. I sell everything AS-IS but not because I am out to depart you from your hard earned money only because I have NO IDEA how you treat your gear and I should not have to cover for your errors. I know my gear works and my references and feedback prove that true.

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:13 pm
by KD1UJ
I am withdrawing this post. has a policy of allowing hate speech. As a matter of principle, I cannot support this site by allowing my contributions to be used here.

Read the post!

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:40 am
by kf9z
Did you not read my posting? We signed an AS-IS bill of sale! Are you serious? You cannot expect someone to stand behind a car that was fully functional and tested by the buyers and driven for 400 miles with NO PROBLEM. Are you nuts? If there was a problem at the time of purchase it would have shown itself PRIOR to 400-miles. How do I know that they properly cared for the car and did not hit something that caused a leak in the transmission? How do I know a problem even existed and they wanted to 'rent' my car for 400-miles and thought I was an easy mark. You are way out of line and not much for common sense if you think anyone would stand behind a working car that was sold AS-IS with a SIGNED bill of sale. It worked when I had it and it worked for 18-days and 400+ miles with NO issues. But somehow that is my fault? You cannot be serious. I smell a troll as no one I know would think that. Keep in mind they test drove the car and found no issues with it and agreed to purchase the car. This was a 1-hour test drive and not just something around the block. Our justice system is screwed up if this is fair...and so is our culture if others think I was in the wrong. That is nuts and I feel very badly for our country if that truly is the case.

If someone buys a rig from you and you sell it AS-IS (even if you didn't) and they come over to test it out and make many Q's with it, they buy it and use it for almost THREE WEEKS at their QTH with no problems and then one day it stops working would you offer to refund their money? You cannot be serious. That is just plain crazy. You have no idea what caused the problem and as you last knew the rig worked for you, for them at your house and for almost three weeks at their house. This is a sad day for America if people actually think this way. I am not sure how someone can be so wrong on an issue. I mean no disrespect but you need to be serious and honestly re-think your spot on this issue...not for me but for anyone who deals with you in a transaction. I am almost at a loss for words...almost.

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:28 am
by KD1UJ
You talk about 400 miles in 3 weeks likes it's from here to the sun nonstop! That's not even two tanks of gas, man. Cars are supposed to go thousands of miles! If you sell a car that breaks down in 400 miles, you don't feel any responsibility at all for anything else you might have said, just because you wrote the magic phrase "as is" onto the bill of sale?

Yes, perhaps they did something that caused the problem. But doesn't common sense suggest it was more likely it was something just waiting to happen? Other than maybe your own representation that you would never do such a thing, how do we know you didn't already know or suspect there was a problem that you just didn't disclose? (After all, you think it's fair to question the honesty of your buyer, so why not you?) Anyway, if you think it was abuse, you don't think there might be a way to show that? For example, if you had gotten it inspected by your own mechanic before and then inspected again by him after he could be your witness that it wasn't your fault. (Similarly with a radio, not a car, perhaps you could have another ham verify the operation before you sold it and photograph it inside and out to document the condition.)

In answer to your question, yes, if I sold something that broke in 3 weeks, I would definitely do something and that might well be a full refund or at minimum a large chunk of the repair. (If you go to my business website, you'll notice I give a 90-day unconditional satisfaction guarantee on the software I sell, meaning they can get a full refund for any reason or even for no reason.)

As far as which of us people might want to trade with, well, let's see: I think I should take some responsibility for whatever I sell and you don't. What do you think people will decide about that?

Finally, on the question of which of us is crazy, I put it to you: At least I apparently have a judge that agrees with me and you have, well, nothing.

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:32 am
by kf9z
Funny...I own a business also. Software is not a car and should not even be compared to a car. The car was sold AS-IS with a singed bill of sale that stated AS-IS yet I have some fault? Not even close. I had the AS-IS in writting per your original posting and now you are changing your story...makes sense to me! Listen...I give. It was my fault and I should bend over and take it because I sold something listed as AS-IS on the sales bill and ran the car until the day I sold it with ZERO problems as well as the new owners taking the car for a ONE HOUR test drive! Get real...I still cannot understand how you can think the way you do but it takes all types. I just do not get it. I will not change your mind one bit and you sure will not change my mind. I was bent over by a system that favors those who are not as 'well off' as I am. I just gave my last used car away but I am sure someone would find a way to sue over that as well. If there were a problem I am sure you would consider it my fault regardless. Next time they go to the junk yard.

And just a note...400-miles is MORE than enough time to spot a problem and if it existed when purchased it would have shown up PRIOR to that magical 400-mile number. Funny how it worked GREAT for the test drive and 400+ miles but somehow the transmission fault was of my doing and I must have known about it? Get real. AS-IS is AS-IS and if you choose not to have the car checked out that is not my issue. I should not have to pay to have my car being sold AS-IS inspected for your benifit or mine. I gave that option to the buyer and it was declined. I sold a 10-year old car to a couple for $800. What can you expect? It was sold AS-IS and ran fine for more than 400-miles! Not to mention 70k I put on it with ZERO issues. There has to be a little bit of sense someplace locked away inside you...please find it and use it.

Also...a note: No mechanic would have been able to determine a transmission fault that occured more than 400 miles AFTER the purchase. That is just plain silly to think. It exhibited NO outward signs of a problem and ran 100% when purchased...but tell me again why I am at fault? Remind me not to sell you a car...or anything come to think of it.

Guess I was right

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:03 am
by n6xa
Harumph!!! Guess I was right in pointing out that a car sale was not the point of this topic. Why, cause now that is what is being argued.



That is it for me...

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:32 pm
by kf9z
This had a LOT to do with ham radio...everyone thinks they are entitled. This is a sad commentary on our culture where others think they should have rights beyond what they agreed to. If you buy something AS-IS (and that is what EVERYTHING YOU BUY on is) please do not expect someone to stan behind it regarles of physical condition because they have ZERO idea what you did/do to the equipment or how you treated it. For all you know as the rig was hit by lightning or took a surge. The car story HOLDS TRUE. I am not sure why you cannot see that...maybe because it is not ham radio related specifically but the moral of the story rings true as is evident with the replies from others. Not everything has to be HAM RADIO related to be relevant to our hobby. Think about it, would you? I am not sure why I even most hams live in a bubble and cannot see their nose from their face. I more for me. The hobby has gone down hill with all the scams, theifs and liars yet you expect someone to stand behind a piece of working gear in light of all the above? It worked when it left and it worked for me...that is the ONLY thing I will stand behind. I am even to the point when I sell gear I VIDEO the gear working and document EVERY ANGLE with digital pictures. I even take pictures of me PACKING the radio and SENDING IT via FedEx or USPS and then SCAN or PHOTOGRAPH the receipt and e-mail ALL of the above to the buyer. I put the rig on my Bird meter with a DL and photograph the output of the rig and usually put the radio on a signal generatory to show the RX is working. I have even gone to the extent of running full tests on my service monitor. This is ABOVE what you should/can expect of any sale as many do not have this ability. Can I be at fault if the radio fails to work? According to all of you I would. Not a chance. As I said, I will take each issue on a case by case basis. I have luckily not had a single problem with ANY transcation I have had that is ham radio related. I am done responding as the POSTING POLICE have deemed this thread 'not ham radio related'. Thanks.

Not a Cop

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:01 pm
by n6xa
For me, this topic is worthwhile. W5KC's link to a rating scale was probably the best thing to come out of it. Simply stated, it makes good sense for all persons participating in the online sales to use terms which have the same meaning. In other words, and as listed in the link provided by W5KC, a 10 would be a new rig. 9 would be a mint or like new rig. The idea is that such a universal rating method would help eleminate over zealous or unscrupulous posters.

Indeed this board belongs to KA9FOX and he has the final say on how it is run. However, it is left open for the participants to discuss topics like this one. Hopefully, discussion can bring about a understanding of how to assure a more accurate communication between buyers and sellers.

I do not think that any of the posters accused a particular person of miss leading adds. So to some extent the recent rancor seems unfounded. There is one thing that was said that is not true. All equipment sold here is not "as is." Very often I see adds that guarantee not DOA or say it WILL WORK. A few even say they will take it back if the buyer is not satisified or that they will stand behind their stated condition of the rig. Yes, there are hazards to the seller making such a guarantee. But they must be confident enough in their fellow HAMS to make such guarantees.

In closing, and this is my last post on the topic also, this board has been good to be and I am proud, overall, of the quality of people participating in it. There have been a few exceptions which you will find in the feedback department, thank my stars I was not a part of those transactions.

May all of our actions benefit the image of the HAM community and happy DX to all!!!