We NEED to be CAREFUL of PAYPAL here's the whole story

Share information regarding your recently completed deals with other ham operators. ONLY BUYERS AND SELLERS directly involved with the transaction can post in this forum. If you have a report of a scam by someone pretending to be a ham, please post in the Scammer Reports forum instead.
Forum rules
As of Dec 9, 2013: ONLY BUYERS AND SELLERS directly involved with a transaction can post here. Do not post replies in any topic if you are not the buyer or seller in the transaction being discussed! If you believe you can help the buyer or seller, please use the Private Message system to communicate with them. NOTE: if you have been scammed by someone pretending to be a ham, please post in the Scammer Reports forum instead. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=136 for additional rules.
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:54 am

We NEED to be CAREFUL of PAYPAL here's the whole story

Post by ne6v » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:21 pm

I have received quite a few emails by hams asking me about the PAYPAL, "thing" so here it is...

Well here's some advice. I too would keep a LARGE balance on hand at
> PAYPAL. As I buy and sell all the time. I never send an invoice via their
> system, nor do I do much selling on EBAY. This month of December, has been
> a different month for me where as I have received several LARGE transfers
> for some HIGH-END(Collins gear ) equipment. When I woke up on
> Saturday morning the 27th of December, I checked my email and I had an
> email from PAYPAL, advising me that my account was on "Limited" access
> and I would NOT be able to access those funds. I immediately got online,
> and went to their site. It was correct what I was reading in my inbox was
> true , PAYPAL had "frozen" my account. With the almost $4000.00 in it! I
> called them right away and then it all came to light what they were doing
> and inferring! First, PAYPAL, was questioning what the monies were coming
> into my account for. I explained to them I buy and sell ham radio gear.
> They asked if those transactions were conducted via EBAY( now you must
> realize they already knew the transactions were not from eBay. I took that
> question as a TEST) I explained I buy and sell on other sites which cater
> to Hams, and were established for our specific community. the person was
> still not liking what I was telling him.At this point the person wanted
> me to provide DELIVERY PROOF for items which were represented by
> transactions that had recently occurred. One such transaction was a
> refund a fellow ham issued to me by a mutual agreement we made. PAYPAL,
> wanted details and in fact said I was operating "outside" of their "rules
> and regulations", by making such agreements. Next transaction they chose
> to review the seller, again a fellow ham, has as his "confirmed address"
> with PAYPAL a US Post office box. He had instructed me to ship to his
> home address, which is his callbook address by the way. I did so, he
> received the package and no problems. I provided PAYPAL the delivery
> confirmation and , to my surprise I got the 3rd degree from this rep.
> Apparently, we are NOT TO SHIP to any address other than the "CONFIRMED"
> address on the "YOU'VE GOT A PAYMENT" email we get from PAYPAL.(I have confirmed with this ham that BOTH his POBOX and his home address are confirmed addresses!) So there
> was another strike against me. Now here's a real GREAT one. Another
> transaction they choose, the ham paid me but PICKED THE ITEM UP, at a
> later date. OH BOY now that is a NO NO, according to PayPal. Apparently,
> DO NOT "FALL WITH IN THE PROTECTED" guide lines should a buyer file a
> claim after the fact.. Well just great another strike for me! Now, one more
> transaction reviewed, is one that we as hams do a bunch of and that is
can not do that with PAYPAL!! At this point I said enough was enough, I
don't know who or what type of clients others sell and have business with on PAYPAL.

But for over 20 years I have been a ham operator, and we HAMS do
operate and conduct ourselves (most of us do) as professionals, one thing
we do have is a unspoken code, A GENTLEMEN'S AGREEMENT, is still( for the
most part) practiced with in our community. If I can not conduct my
business my affairs in a manor in which satisfies me and my customers, then
I do not need you PAYPAL. So with that as I had the rep on the phone, I
issued a FULL REFUND to a ham that was buying a Kenwood transceiver. I also
issued a refund to another ham that was buying some other "Collins Gear" At
that point I took my account from $4000 + to 2.73! The rep was LIVID! He
had the nerve to say, "how do we know you were not buying or selling
drugs!!", Now that was it, I went off the wall. The ham that was buying the
"Collins Gear" didn't have a problem with it and I then drove well over 200
miles one way 12/27/2008 to deliver the equipment to him, he then returned the
refund to me in CASH!( This guy is really a GREAT GUY and one of SO MANY
SUPER HAMS, I have the honor of knowing) The other ham I issued the refund
to, he lives out of state, and here again another SUPER HAM, he said he
would buy a MO and send it to me for the rig, WHAT A GREAT GUY AND A SUPER
HAM. . So lessons learned,
my State Director of Mars, has always told me the minute he would
get a payment in, he would transfer the funds to his bank account. THIS IS
SOMETHING SO IMPORTANT, I SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THAT. Also I reviewed the way our monies are kept with them it is quite scary.First, off if you agree to "get interest" on your balance, which they PUSH real HARD. There is a reason for that, THOSE INTEREST BEARING ACCOUNTS ARE MONEY MARKET ACCOUNTS AND ARE NOT FDIC INSURED. Now if you have money on balance with them but not in a interest bearing account, then it is insured,
BUT ALL MONIES ARE POOLED TOGETHER AND THEN PLACED IN AN ACCOUNT, AND THEN INSURED AS A GROUP, TO WHAT EVER THE MAX FDIC ACCOUNT BALANCE INSURED AMOUNT IS...100K, 200K WHATEVER. So I thought about that, and thought how many eBay members have money on account with them, I suddenly realized none of the money would be insured because the fdic protects accounts up to 100,000 or maybe 200,000 and I know for sure that total members balances MUST equal more than that!! Bottom line is this, that is our money they have, so NO ONE will take care your money as good as you so its best you get your money and keep it in your account at your BANK that you have(SOME) control over.
> I'm not trying to VENT in anyway, but rather, give a HEADS up to everyone!
>Your comments are welcome, but most important BECAREFUL, think of this BANKS and all these companies which are regulated and some that are not are DROPPING like flies...going UNDER...BK....who's watching PAYPAL and our money!
ne6v at arrl dot net
> 73
> DE
> NE6V
> Joe Vega
> 6264195167
> previous: W6eev,kb6lkl
> Station Trustee KI6TRI
> CCA :AC97-00562 Those cancer DR''s lied I was
> suppose to be dead 10 years ago.So I sold everything and prepared to
> die...well 10 years later I'm still here..So I'm back on the AIR!

Posts: 245
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:06 pm

Post by N4ATS » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm

Thats why I like the good ole' personal checks. Of all the hundreds of deals I have done on here , I always ask for personal checks and have never been ripped yet. You simply call the bank , ask for funds available , thats it...

I have had several freinds that have dropped PayPal because of the very reason you are speaking of including myself.

Paypal DOES make it quick and simple , however I have the time...
73's from:
18.133 Mhz.

Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:12 am
Location: Titusville, Florida, USA

PayPal, really?

Post by W4LTD » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:12 am

I have been using PayPal since 2000 and have never had any problems with them whatsoever -- with over 900 transactions to this date, both to and from.

They are a service for those who want to use it, those who may not want to take a check or an overseas payment that cannot be guaranteed.

I use my Visa card as the "account" of record, therefore, if I ever have any "issues" I can fall-back to Visa's $50 limited liabilty and their warranty policy.

Just my humble opinion. eBAY has indeed become the 900-pound Gorilla but PayPal (yes, I know, eBAY owns them) seems to still be a worthwhile means of accepting payment.

Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:54 am

How quickly the tables can turn

Post by ne6v » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:22 am

Here's an update~
I too have been a "member" for years and infact since before 2000. I' m not sure how many transactions I've conducted with them as my agent but the last 1/4 of 2008, the books will close with over 80 transactions with them as agent. Many of those transactions are well over 1,000 each. The issue is not a warrenty policy or "limited liability" but rather something much deeper than that. First off, its my ability to conduct transactions and offer customer service to my customers in a way and manor which my customer base wants and or expects.Second, I should not be forced to use Ebay soley as the vehicle in which to conduct my sales. Here's a little fact, most I'm sure do not know. It is written in the "user agreement" that if PAYPAL is accepted as a method of payment than NO ADDITIONAL FEE CAN BE CHARGED FOR ACCEPTING PAYPAL. (meaning those who charge the 3% or 4% for accepting PAYPAL, WRONG that is a NONO) here's another one, why does PAYPAL not allow a SELLER or a BUYER , as they call it "DOUBLE DIP" when in reality that is exactly what they do when we sell on EBAY and they force us to ACCEPT PAYPAL. They are "double dipping" on the fees aren't they?

more food for thought..... :idea:
> DE
> NE6V
> Joe Vega
> 6264195167
> previous: W6eev,kb6lkl
> Station Trustee KI6TRI
> CCA :AC97-00562 Those cancer DR''s lied I was
> suppose to be dead 10 years ago.So I sold everything and prepared to
> die...well 10 years later I'm still here..So I'm back on the AIR!

Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:01 pm
Location: dodge city kansas

Post by lhk0pd » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:46 am

I've had Pay Pal lock my acct a couple of times claiming it was because some one tried to illegally access my acct. But i've been a member of pay pal since i believe 1998 and have out side of the two times mentioned i've found them to be really quite easy to use and have recovered money for me once.But i do prefer using M.O. and personal check's. But as for not charging for the 3.5% pay pal charges just ad it to your selling price but i prefer not to do it and have maybe a couple of times been requested to pay it. About all i can say is no bank or financial or business is perfect and it best we take all precauctions specially in todays financial atmosphere.
Larry Huff K0pd

Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:07 pm
Location: Greenville, SC

Is this all there is? Is there something missing?

Post by K4ICL » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:21 pm

First, PAYPAL, was questioning what the monies were coming
> into my account for. I explained to them I buy and sell ham radio gear.
> They asked if those transactions were conducted via EBAY( now you must
> realize they already knew the transactions were not from eBay. I took that
> question as a TEST)

Normally, financial institutions will not risk a being sued for inappropriate seizure of customer's funds. They may "freeze" funds only for a legally defensible cause, not just a whim or a guess that there is a violation of their policy and/or other contract terms.

The so-called violations of PayPal policy you site could not have been known by the PayPal agent without other outside information or a formal investigation by PayPal.

Since what you do with with your money is your business and absolutely none of PayPal business, why did PayPal "flag" your account?

Was there a complaint from someone about reception of goods, payments, etc?

Was there some other serious violation?

It appears there could be more to this story than what is seen here.

Is there more?


Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:12 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by N4XTS » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:20 am

Paypal is NOT a bank, and this, Federal banking regulations do not apply. What they are is a MONEY TRANSFER SERVICE, and licensed as such, and different rules apply. Let's face it, MONEY TRANSFER SERVICES (such as Western Union) are preferred by crooks, smugglers and illegal aliens as a substitute for using legitimate banks that require credit approval, SSN's, etc.

That being said, Paypal views every one of their customers as a CRIMINAL should you EVER catch the attention of their fraud department. When you sign up for them and read their many page user agreement, you agree that they, at their sole discretion at any time and for any reason, freeze your account, jerk you off, and make you wait up to SIX MONTHS before releasing holds on your funds.
What can cause you to get on their fraud department's radar?

-a high number of transactions in a one month period of time, especially non-Ebay ones
-several large number of high dollar (4 figure or more) transactions back to back
-if you've ever had claim filed against you and lost
-if you've sent or received funds from the same person multiple times
-if your Ebay account is suspended
-for any reason they feel like

The bottom line is once you are on someone's radar screen, you are pretty much screwed. You can play their silly games of "we need more information". They will ask you to fax them dozens of documents ranging from utility bills, bank statements, birth certificates, tax returns, et al- then jerk you around. It's all a stall tactic and the bottom line is this: THEY AREN'T GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO RELEASE YOUR FUNDING UNTIL THE 6 MONTHS HAS PASSED.

The only thing they will respond to are certified letters notifying them you are suing them or written communication from law enforcement threatening them with criminal prosecution for theft. Aside from this, they will BLOW YOU OFF.

Paypal is necessary evil of doing business online. That's also the problem, they have so much fraud that they view everyone as a criminal and their system is setup to protect their interest, not yours.

A real bank merchant account is the way to go, problem is not everyone does enough business to justify the expense of having an account, not everyone can qualify as most banks are tightening their belts especially when it comes to extending credit to individuals. So what can we do?

Money orders aren't the answer, lots of fraudulent money orders, ESPECIALLY USPS money orders- and the USPS is so behind the times THEY DON'T HAVE AN ONLINE TRACING SYSTEM YET. The bottom line is don't ship anything until funds are in your hand or bank account. With Paypal you should transfer out any funds IMMEDIATELY upon receipt.

That's about all you can do to protect yourself and DO YOUR RESEARCH on who you are trading with! Ask for phone numbers, do a reverse lookup, Google Earth, etc. The same Internet browser that brought you to the ad can also bring you to a wealth of information on people. You'd be surprised what is available if you spend a little time searching.
Amateur radio gets right through.

Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:49 am
Location: Orlando, Fl


Post by WB4KMA » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:59 am

Some people will never learn from the problems others have until it hits them.

The other problem with a paypal only clause, is the idea of refusing to accept cash.
EX: You look for something from motorcycle parts to ham equipment and find something in your area. So you drive over and want to do a cash and carry transaction.
There is already a case law on refusing to accept US currency for a debit. Pay pal could care less.

It is not a problem free world. Counterfeit money and money orders exsit as with all kinds of new cons with computer crimes.

If your transaction is over 3 to 500.00, look up the persons name on the local court house to see if they are the involved in court suits, convicted for fraud. Background checks can be done for anywhere to free with local records to a private data base.

Usually each county has a recording and indexing department Then check with an area of three to four counties of the persons address too.
This year I just collected 1,500.00 for a small claims lawsuit. After I got the loien I filed on the IRS returns and got the stimulus checks. Then he realized I was not going away and wanted to sell his home. Igot paid with interest too.

It is not the money as bad as the stupid people with their lack of training and phone ettiquet

The burden of proof is on paypal. The people they hire are not exactly college atty graduates either. I wish I could find a cure to fix stupid.

Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Missouri

Post by KC0UKR » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:27 pm

This does not have to be that bad.
I have been using PayPal since 2000 I think and I have had very few problems with them too.

On the few occasions I have been scammed or screwedmmostly by Hams,once by an idiot I met face to face to receive an item he claimed worked!

In each case I was able to fully recover the money and/or the item depending on the deal.

I did have to follow their bizarre process to the letter and it took a little time but this is a new and impersonal world and we play in an old-fashioned hobby with all types of people.

Gone are the days when you could sinply accept very much at face value after being stung even one time.

I do it this way:
-I have a seperate account at the Bank just for PayPal and nothing else.
-The moment I receive a PayPal payment I transfer the money to another account.

So far I can not see how I can get hurt with this method.
I also do unto others as I would hope they do me,naturally.
This is something not to be taken for granted.

I also use a checklist I have developed and I usually insist on a telephone call,always if I will be sending any money.

If anything at all smells fishy,I just find another sale or deal.

This is supposed to be fun.


Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:14 pm

Pay Pal

Post by KB3ZS » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:45 pm

Out of the millions of people who use Pay Pal I am sure there will be some that have a problem. It is just like buying the latest gadget that was rated very high by "Consumers" or something....someone is going to be unhappy with it.
I have been using PayPal and eBay for many years and have never had a bad experience. I am sure some day, I may. I am also sure that someday I will catch a cold.
Hey, it's the electronic age and this is the way most people are doing business.

Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:49 am
Location: Orlando, Fl


Post by WB4KMA » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:34 pm

You are absolutely right sir.

My biggest concern is MANDATING THE USE OF PAYPAL.
Before it was an option and had limited problems as you said.

Now paypal is mandated as a form of payment.

I think that is my biggest objection. The concern is the chain of command of how they handle problems.

Lets keep in mind that we do not let anyone have a final say so in COURT. This is why we have appellant judges and courts. Sadly, this is not true with paypal.

With respect John Hayes

Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:54 am

The drama continues....

Post by ne6v » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:56 am

Hello everyone. So on 12/31/2008 I spoke to a supervisior and gave him the details of me transporting some gear to Central Cal, San Luis Obispo to be exact. The dude did not believe me that i did that. So he was on my speaker phone, I picked up my cell phone and called the ham I delivered the equipment to., I will refer to him as "AC", now its 8 am, I call and "AC" answers the phone and I explain to him whats is still going on. The paypal dude is listening to me and asks me what number did I call him on I told him and then he said he would call "AC" right then. He put me on hold. "AC" got a call coming in and we hung up, 10 minutes later PAYPAL dude was on the phone with me and his attitude changed he was pleasent and not rude! I was shocked. He said it would get handled and with in several hours it was.

Now I have to address something someone wrote and quoted me, and imlied that "there must be MORE to the story" Impling I'am not disclosing everything. Well sir, your right, I for got to mention that I would call paypal and ebay when they had a number listed and I would complain to them in a second!!! Up until this stuff happened I NEVER HAD A COMPLAINT NOR A LIMIT or the such on my account.

I have thought about this many times and these are my observations:

1. PAYPAL WANTS ALL SALES ALL TRANS ACTIONS to go through EBAY bottom line. There are several reasons for this , one is of course they make more money. Also it gives them MORE CONTROL over us and our accounts.

2. PAYPAL eyes EVERYONE as a POSSIBLE SUSPECT/CRIMINAL. Now that does not mean everyone will go through this but it can happen.

3. The second money arrives in your paypal account you better send it to your bank account, GET IT OUT OF THERE RIGHT AWAY. As soon as you begin the transfer process to a bank account they PAYPAL are no longer the agent and they do not have control and or the ability to "reach" in your bank account and seize it.

4. PAYPAL does have a BLACKLIST , and once on it you'll never have peace. ( I know I'am on it)

5. Limit your "back to back" transactions, and limit your overall transactions. I had a premier account and now they have forced me to have a business accoount. (of course more fees to them)

In Closing, I have had so many GREAT and thoughtful responses. I thank everyone. This was such a surprise to me. When we got back from that Central Cal turn around, I was sick for 2 days. I had fever and everything. My nerves were gone....
OH YA By the way .. On tuesday january 6, 2009, they did it again, myaccount is limited.... this time I was the buyer and now they have froze my payments to these guys I was buying equipment from!!

So it continues...
NE6V :lol:

Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:49 am
Location: Orlando, Fl


Post by WB4KMA » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:23 am

I am waiting to see when US currency is modified to say
This note is NOT legal Tender for debts and Private without using Pay pal first.

Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:12 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by N4XTS » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:44 am


the only thing you can do once you are on Paypal's poop list is sue them. And not just threaten to sue them (because they will just blow you off, or play the "we need more information" game and have you send a thousand more faxes of personal information that goes to who knows where), you actually need to file a suit in your local jurisdiction. Paypal is required to be licensed in all 50 states as a money transfer service. Suing them is the ONLY WAY to get your funds unfrozen without playing continual games. Otherwise it's just going to be one card trick after another with them now that you are on their radar.

If you sell on Ebay, you are now REQUIRED to accept Paypal- since Ebay owns Paypal it is in their best interest to FORCE it down everyone's throat. Another reason to avoid Ebay.

I'll say it again, PAYPAL IS NOT A BANK, it's a virtual "Western Union" that wants to act like a bank and charge hosebag fees, but not deliver service to it's customers.
Amateur radio gets right through.

Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:32 pm


Post by N9LCD » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:45 pm

Has anybody taken the time to read and TRY to understand the PayPal user's agreement.

By using PayPal, you accept their user's agreement. The User's Agreement requires, yes, requires, you to sue PayPal in one of two venues, California or Nebraska (where they have operations).


Is this legal?

I don't know. But some years ago the Federal Trade Commission put an end to the practice of suing past-due credit card holders in Fairbanks or Juneau, Alaska. The FTC's reasoning was that it unfairly denied the defendant the right to be present in court without being unreasonably burdened.

Unfortunately, as individuals, we DO NOT have the FTC's clout or resources!



Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:54 am

Did you know...

Post by ne6v » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:30 am

Hello everyone,
Jerry brings up a great point in fact most of you do. I thought I would highlight some of the interesting parts of the user agreement for us!

Oh by the way my accouint is still "limited" and under "investigation"

Item 1 Who has a "balance" on thier PAYPAL account? How do you have it, meaning, did you "fall" for thier marketing of "interest earning" account? If you have your money with PAYPAL in a "interest bearing"account IT IS NOT INSURED, IT IS IN A MONEY MARKET ACCOUNT!! YOU MAY LOSE YOUR MONEY ...ITS true here's the section of the agreement:Auctually ITS not even in the agreement you have to read it in the prosteus of the Mutual fund, and in there you will read:
Lack of Governmental Insurance or Guarantee. Investments in the Fund and the Master Portfolio are not bank deposits and are not
insured or guaranteed by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation or any other government agency. Although the Fund seeks to
preserve the value of your investment at $1.00 per share, it is possible to lose money by investing in the Fund

you violate the Acceptable Use Policy then we may hold your funds up to 180 Days, fine you up to $2,500.00 USD for each such violation and take legal action against you to recover additional losses we incur.
And lastly, please read:14. Disputes with PayPal.

Did you know if you "give them any problems" they can fine you $1000 penilty fee?

This proves we must read the fine print~


NE6V :lol:

Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: chicago


Post by WN9VMR » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:07 am

I just wanted to relay what happend to me alittle over a year ago.I was scammed by a fellow ham op on ebay(KI4WRS),which has been documented here on qth.com......I filed a complaint with paypal and ebay and they did absolutely nothing.But here goes the best part,100 percent feedback as both a seller and buyer and paypal limits my account (2 months after i complained about there non existant buyer protection), stating they observed suspicious activity in my account.The suspicious activity was three sales i had of equipment that totalled over $4k.They requested receipts for the gear as well as a credit report and more info then i cared to give them.the receipts were the main sticking point because i bought it used and sold it as used also.After i refused to give them the crazy info they wanted not only did they close my account but so did ebay.Thank god i had retreived my 4k before they did this and just to protect myself(because of the horror storied i read online) i closed my bank account and had to open another so they didnt try to snatch my cash.

Am i picking on either ebay or paypal no i am just relaying my wonderful experience with them...good luck Ne6v
member or the ham community for 30 plus years....
cw is not dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 2:49 am
Location: Orlando, Fl

pay pal contracts

Post by WB4KMA » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:02 am

Keep something else in mind.

just because something is in a conttact, it does mean it is going to go the way the contract says.

Many people who rent a building see a clause that they do not allow a person renting a spot to file bankruptcy. This clause is illegal and has no merritt in court.

SO.........just because paypal says something does not mean a provision is mandatory too. Often certain judges have ruled some of this directory and not mandatory.

Finally, in order for the contract to be valid and upheld, there are 5 point to a contract that must be met.