Disappointed with K5CN,... I get the UPS Claims....

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K4BOF
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:44 pm

Disappointed with K5CN,... I get the UPS Claims....

Post by K4BOF » Wed May 16, 2007 4:46 am

Finally had a deal go bad on me here,...

K5CN, Bobby Williams at 6222 Ravenwood Cove Horn Lake MS 38637, shipped an Astron Power Supply to me that was damaged by UPS in transit. I specifically requested that the supply be properly secured during shipping and Bobby assured me that it would be.

Upon receipt of the supply, it was packaged with construction paper in a single corrugated box,... Nothing to absord or pad any shock. One piece of clear, torn tape holding the bottom closed, creased/bent corners, a hole, and a punched-out bottom was left on my doorstep. Needless to say, the power supply is a mess and the heatsink fins bent.

I believe Bobby used an employer to save money in shipping fees. He had the unit insured, but when I asked for a refund (leaving him to sort out the claims with UPS) due to poor packing,... he said that my $140 for the supply was 'already gone',... When I asked for a partial refund of $45 to try and salvage the supply, this was his reply:

UUUHHH...I dont think so. You told me yourself that you told UPS that it wasnt packed well. Whatever the case....XXXXXXX aint got nothing to do with it, its just a place my XXXXXXX works. XXXXXX packed it and insured it. You want the money, get it from UPS. Im done with it

Bobby states that I alerted UPS to his poor packing, but when UPS requested pics and the box 'specs' seal,... that's a hard one to falsify.

A $140 total refund, a $45 partial refund,... or even a smaller amount to bring some type of resolution to the situation, is truly not going to 'break' too many people. It only gave a black-eye to the hobby and I get hosed with a broken piece of equipment.

Bobby let me down on this one. I would be hesitant to recommend or purchase from him, as his shipping skills are lacking and he didn't even offer to help me out.

Bruce
K4BOF

K4BOF
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:44 pm

Always a silver lining,... N4ATS... Bill Grassa comes thru.

Post by K4BOF » Wed May 16, 2007 3:29 pm

I started the above, original thread REALLY late last night and posted it at about 12:20am EST on Wednesday, 5/16. By 8am EST, today, I received a few emails about the post. Mostly from those that had experienced similar circumstances such as mine. I appreciate all the support.

One email in particular, that stood out, was one from Bill Grassa, N4ATS. He emailed me at 7:05am EST, responding to my original post. I would consider that Bill and I are friends, although I have never personally shaken his hand or met him in person,... only doing business over the phone and via email regarding equipment repair. I sent him my amplifier in the past along with other equipment needing his 'magic touch'. Bill is a very decent person, a man of character and integrity, and 'good' for the hobby.

I am attaching his email to me regarding my damaged Astron power supply,...

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:05 AM

Bummer Bruce on the Astron you got that was smashed , you need any help on it , let me know , its on me...

Bill Grassa
Orlando , Florida


Bill and I have had no collaborative financial interests involving radio,... we just enjoy the hobby and like good equipment working as it should. Bill even makes it clear on his FL-7000 website that he is not out to make money.

My post is an unsolicited one for Bill, not an ad. I just wanted others to know that if you do deal with Bill Grassa, N4ATS you're dealing with a fair and honest individual that goes the extra mile, above and beyond the call. He's up-standing and a pleasure to be associated with. Check out the other posts about N4ATS on this site and on many other ham-related sites.

Bill, thank you for your kindness and offer.

73
Bruce
K4BOF

kk9a
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Post by kk9a » Wed May 16, 2007 10:17 pm

Bruce, the shipper is Bobby. He packaged the power supply and paid UPS to deliver it to you. The shipper is the only one that can file a damage claim with UPS, which I doubt they will pay if it was improperly packaged. His obligations are not "done" as he claims.

K4BOF
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:44 pm

Post by K4BOF » Thu May 17, 2007 3:27 am

John- Hello and thanks for the reply post.
Here's the skinny on this shipping scam:
The return address and telephone number on the UPS sticker (attached to the destroyed box) are from a company that Bobby used to ship the item. I called the number and it is indeed a business. I was re-directed to the shipping supervisor and I hung up the phone,... so I know they ship a lot of items there and have a UPS account. Bobby avoided fees and pocketed the money by using an 'inside associate' that packed, insured, and shipped the power supply within the company for him. IMHO, he basically used a third party shipping department to make extra money see?
I would think that the burden rests on the company because they shipped it. If I pursue this they're going to be saying, "Who the heck is Bobby?" You can see why he states that he is 'done with it', as he does not want to expose the 'inside associate' for fear of a possible job termination due to shipping theft.
If he would have helped me or partially refunded me, I would have called it a day.
My dilemma is, do I want to expose the 'inside associate' and cause a potential firing. Complex, yet interesting, eh?
What would you do?

N6VMO
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Post by N6VMO » Thu May 17, 2007 2:46 pm

K4BOF wrote: My dilemma is, do I want to expose the 'inside associate' and cause a potential firing. Complex, yet interesting, eh?
What would you do?
I would "burn'em" all and let God sort it out. :lol:

K4ICL
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But...

Post by K4ICL » Thu May 17, 2007 2:57 pm

Bobby avoided fees and pocketed the money by using an 'inside associate' that packed, insured, and shipped the power supply within the company for him. IMHO, he basically used a third party shipping department to make extra money see?


Do you KNOW this to be a fact?

What if Bobby has an agreement with his company to ship using their facilities and discounts with actual costs being deducted from his pay. Or, as is true for some companies, Bobby is allowed to ship free as a perk.

There are other possibilities, all legitimate, eh?

What does Bobby have to say about it?

K4ICL

K4BOF
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:44 pm

Post by K4BOF » Thu May 17, 2007 4:23 pm

Thanks for the posts.
Bobby originally stated that it was me who alerted UPS to his poor packing job, which is false. His plan was to have his associate follow-up on the damage claims. All that UPS will offer the Receiver in these cases, is for the Receiver to keep in contact with the Shipper for details on the pending investigation (which I did),... in my case, who is the Shipper? (email and calls were made to Bobby multiple times),... Bobby or the third party company is the Shipper?

How do I win or break even there without rooting out the actual shipping location?

I really am not certain about his intentions really, but I do know that an immediate 'Red Flag' went up when I requested a refund for purchase price and he stated that the money I paid for the supply 'is gone'. That was a big clue there and at that point, I accepted the worst. If you are familiar with UPS, they will send a driver out (3x) to pick up the damaged unit and send it to a claims center for inspection or back to the Shipper. I held on to the unit because after the previous statement from Bobby,... I might not see anything back again,... unit and money now all gone. Also, in an early phone conversation after I made him aware of the damage, Bobby initially felt bad about the 'pack job' after the fact. The damage pics were sent to him too.

K4ICL, I appreciate your position, but the attached email (original post) above is pretty clear to me that no help from the Seller exists. Bobby blamed the destruction of the supply on UPS, faulted me for bringing a damaged package to his and UPS' attention, now he is avoiding taking responsibility for his poor packing of the item, and is now failing to help out the Receiver. I would have expected more from an Extra Class, one that should know the tradition and spirit of the hobby, let alone common sense in dealing with a situation that could have been rectified super-fast but relied on UPS insurance claims to solve the problem.

BTW, the 'eh' was to peak the interest,... I am not Canadian,... not that there is anything wrong with that. No flames intended to you or our international neighbors.

73
Bruce
K4BOF

K4BOF
Posts: 101
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Astron...like a Timex, takes a lickin,...keeps on tickin

Post by K4BOF » Thu May 24, 2007 3:09 pm

After a couple evenings of labor,... a solder joint here, a popped rivet there, a smudge of silicon temp. paste here, a broken screw there,...THAT, and a new $25 heatsink and several new screws and nuts. ,...I got the Astron supply breathing again. Seems to be holding its own after getting creamed due to a poor pack job by K5CN and rough UPS handling. Only time will tell, but with Astron's reputation of producing a durable product, I should be okay.

There are two important things I did learn from this incident that all hams should know and not 'skimp' on:

#1--The obvious,... a 30lb unit and a single corrugated box, do not mix.

#2--Overlooked by many,...is the PACKING of fragile items.

One cannot ONLY rely on any shipper's INSURANCE to take care of you if there is a problem or damage to your shipped items. The first thing a shipper looks for in a claim is the condition of the shipping carton and the item weight vs. the carton crush specs labeled on the box. Also, insulation and padding will be considered by the claims investigator. There needs to be proper clearance between the inner item and the outer carton. I think K4ICL has a thread somewhere (about a Giant silver-back Gorilla throwing your stuff around then stomping on it!) dealing with this,... all sellers should check it out,... very helpful.

73
Bruce
K4BOF

K4ICL
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Gorilla NO...

Post by K4ICL » Thu May 24, 2007 4:02 pm

The antiGorilla packing suggestions are at

http://www.k4icl.com/how%20to%20pack.htm

Cheers,

AL

KC0UKR
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Missouri

Post by KC0UKR » Sun May 27, 2007 1:54 pm

Bruce
You lost me here????
How is this "Complex" in any way at all?

You paid a guy for the delivered supply and it arrived damaged due to his negligence.What is complex about this?

None of the details about his motives and the ramifications have any vearing at all regarding his failing to get the supply to you as agreed,do they?

To top it all off he his response to this is to tell you to "Piss Off" and yet you seem to feel some bizarre loyalty to him though he clearly could not care less about you.

I am simply trying to understand where you are coming from here.

Ed

K4BOF
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:44 pm

Complexities,...

Post by K4BOF » Sun May 27, 2007 3:46 pm

Ed-
Thanks for the post. I am going to try and answer your questions here,... will do my best.

1) How is this "Complex" in any way at all?

The situation is complex because the Seller seems to have used a Third Party Shipper. He shipped the item using someone within a business to do it. The Seller used a business address and telephone number on the package. I personally think that the business really had no idea that they were actually shipping the unit to me,... IMHO the package was basically shipped under the 'radar'. The Seller had no ties with the business only someone he knew there with access to the shipping department and UPS account. UPS goes to the company and picks up the unit. UPS holds the company liable for the damage due to poor packing,... yet the company has no clue that they even shipped an item. See what I mean? I would have to go thru the company to eventually get back to the Seller that has no ties to that company. The Seller has already washed his hands of me given the previous email,...

2) You paid a guy for the delivered supply and it arrived damaged due to his negligence.

I did pay the Seller for the package and shipping. It was packaged very poorly and handled roughly by UPS. I brought this to the Seller's attention and he decided that the best way to sort this thing out was to let UPS Insurance resolve the problem. UPS declared that the power supply was indeed packed very poorly and put the burden back on the Seller, who in your words has decided to tell me to Piss Off. After calls and emails to him, the Seller cut off communications with me.

3)None of the details about his motives and the ramifications have any vearing at all regarding his failing to get the supply to you as agreed,do they?

I did investigate this a bit and found that I could dig deeper and see what turns up. It would probably involve some type of investigation from the shipping department side, verifying who actually authorized the shipping of the unit to me and who is responsible for it. It would also involve some type of disciplinary matter if there was a company violation involved. I do have 'some' time to look into it but in reality, it IS $140,... I could cause a stir but is it worth it? I did fix the supply, learned a bit about the guts of an Astron, and put a poor recommendation on a ham reflector about this Seller.

Ed, I guess, in your eyes I could have done more. There's no bizarre loyalty here for the Seller,... which leads me to ask YOU and others here on QTH,... what would you do differently? A previous reply stated,...
I would "burn'em" all and let God sort it out. , although taken as a joke,... nobody else replied. What do you have to say? How would you go about it to get some satisfaction given the circumstances? Would you have sent the power supply back to the Seller for examination given the fact that he didn't have the $140 to refund me and UPS decided against the claim due to poor packing? Do tell.

73
Bruce
K4BOF

KC0UKR
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Post by KC0UKR » Sun May 27, 2007 5:43 pm

I suppose what I was implying was that the only additional pressure you might have brought was to pursue the actual shipper especially since you seem to know who that was.(the company)

The part that has me baffled still was why you hung up the phone instead of pursuing it with the people that did ship the supply.

The loyalty I was referring to relates to this and the fact that you seem to want to shield the shipper/s from responsibilty or exposure when in fact they are directly responsible.
If as you theorize someone at the company is helping the seller then they took part in the scam as I see it.
They certainly must have known at the very least that the packing was not sufficient and that there could be an issue with that.
No one in shipping can receive a package as you describe and not realize there may be trouble.

Even if they did not think about it or realize this they are still part of the deal and the seller is the one who dragged them into this from the start.....not you!

Since this is the only real leverage you have/had, I would have pursued it eagerly.

Nothing like being caught in a double scam to motivate someone to make the deal right.

Does this make more sense?

Ed

K4BOF
Posts: 101
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Post by K4BOF » Sun May 27, 2007 9:28 pm

Ed-
Thanks for your comments and post.
Your points are well taken. You can see the dilemma that I am/was in. Sending the supply back to the company would mean possible forfeiture of the item and the money, with no resolution. The Seller never offered a solution when asked to do so. I think what I was getting to, was to possibly 'cut' my losses while I was 'kinda ahead'. Investigations, claims, fees, leg-work, etc. could take months to resolve if they even do get to that point.
I could call the company (some intial snooping, which I did) and let them know the situation and see what and if something were to happen, but I need to put this into perspective,... it's only $140.
There's no way I am sending the supply back after repairing it myself then potentially losing it again to a Seller such as this. UPS clearly states that the Receiver needs to stay in touch with the Seller to resolve the situation. Pretty hard to do when the door was slammed shut.
I might call the company as you say, but I have no name for the 'insider' only a relation.
I'll look into it and let you know.
Thanks for your comments.

73
Bruce
K4BOF

K4ICL
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You got the tracking number, right?

Post by K4ICL » Mon May 28, 2007 1:57 am

I might call the company as you say, but I have no name for the 'insider' only a relation.
All the company needs to know to look into the matter is the UPS tracking number. Surely you have that.

K4ICL

kc6vlg
Posts: 26
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The endless Astron PS thread

Post by kc6vlg » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:01 am

I'm with Ed on this. IMHO it is a very simple process that is laced with theories and conjectures so it is now this never ending thread.

If it was me, I would just go after UPS. I can careless what they do to the shipper/s and third, fourth, fifth or how ever many parties involved. The fact remains UPS agreed to take the package as badly packed as it may be, they have the right to refused it but they didn't. So it is UPS responsibility to pony up for the insurance.

As for "Bobby", it is between he and his "employer??" for the shipping and that should have nothing to do with the damage box, UPS and the receiver. So what if someone else is paying for the shipping and insurance. The fact is he did fulfill his end of the deal by shipping it. His only fault that I can see here is perhaps for the bad packing job. But then again USP absorbed Bobby's resposibility by accepting the box. IMHO, Bobby should not be labelled as a crook for this.

I feel better now...... let me get off MY box :lol:

"keep things simple....you can see through it better"

W5GA
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Post by W5GA » Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:40 pm

The seller owes you the money. You bought a power supply, he didn't live up to his end of the bargain.

If you ordered something from your local store, and it came banged up you wouldn't go to UPS would you? Of course not, you'd go to the store.

The SELLER has a problem with UPS, not you.

The seller owes you $140.

K4BOF
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:44 pm

Post by K4BOF » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:06 am

Its been some time now on this thread. Unfortunately I couldn't discern who the actual shipper was,... the company Bobby used, or 'himself' using someone to ship it for him from a business that had accounts with UPS,... hope that makes sense?

The packing was horrible, box was a mess (punctured holes), and unit was damaged. Bobby didn't come thru even after I requested that he pack the unit securely (note my email).

FYI on UPS claims ***THEY ONLY DEAL WITH THE SHIPPER***, this was Bobby,... UPS will not deal with the RECEIVER, me. My dealings with UPS were sending pics of the damage, to a claims rep at UPS. UPS wanted me to send the unit back to the ***SHIPPER*** for evaluation, not a UPS claims/service center,... guess who the SHIPPER is?,....right, Bobby,... I already lost my $$$,... I am not losing the Astron too! I figured I should take my chances with repair on my own instead of dealing with an untrustworthy individual. At first he wanted to make things right and was concerned, then he changed his mind and wanted UPS to sort it out since he paid for insurance (BTW, UPS has insurance with each shipment built into their fees). When UPS faulted his packing from the visual pics (I sent him and UPS), he nixed on his end of the deal when UPS found him responsible for the loss,... end of story.

It would have been satisfactory if Bobby would have refunded me $20-$25 for a new heatsink from Astron, which I asked him to do, but he did not. I replaced it and the unit seems to be holding its own,... Astron makes a good product. W5GA: It would have been SWEET to get all the money back,... wishful thinking! Thanks for the replies. 73 Bruce K4BOF

N6VMO
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Post by N6VMO » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:29 pm

The only way to protect yourself from scimping on packaging is this:

If the deal is for the buyer to pay all shipping costs, then insist that the seller get an estimate of packaging costs from UPS, FedEx, DHL, USPS, etc.

The seller sends the buyer the cost estimate.

Then have the equipment packed by UPS, FedEx, DHL, USPS, etc. That way, you eliminate UPS, FedEx, DHL, USPS, etc., from claiming the equipment was improperly packaged.

After all, if you are paying for shipping, why not get it the way you want it.

If the buyer doesn't want to follow those instructions, then pass on the deal.

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