KA4TUE, not a good experience
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As of Dec 9, 2013: ONLY BUYERS AND SELLERS directly involved with a transaction can post here. Do not post replies in any topic if you are not the buyer or seller in the transaction being discussed! If you believe you can help the buyer or seller, please use the Private Message system to communicate with them. NOTE: if you have been scammed by someone pretending to be a ham, please post in the Scammer Reports forum instead. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=136 for additional rules.
As of Dec 9, 2013: ONLY BUYERS AND SELLERS directly involved with a transaction can post here. Do not post replies in any topic if you are not the buyer or seller in the transaction being discussed! If you believe you can help the buyer or seller, please use the Private Message system to communicate with them. NOTE: if you have been scammed by someone pretending to be a ham, please post in the Scammer Reports forum instead. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=136 for additional rules.
KA4TUE, not a good experience
I advertised a SSB filter for sale and Rick Vassar, KA4TUE, emailed me saying he would take it. I emailed my address and he said he would send a check. Three or four days later he emailed me saying he had decided to back out on the deal. In the meantime I told everyone who inquired it was sold. I was less than happy with KA4TUE and told him so. He agreed to go ahead with the deal and buy the filter since he had told me he would take it. I waited 5 days and instead of a check I got another email telling me he was still not going to honor his word. He was very indignant that I would be upset with him. He said he has done this to others and I am the first to be disturbed by it. On 2 occasions he told me he would buy the filter and both times he never kept his word. I do not do business that way and I don't expect others to either. If you must deal with KA4TUE don't be shocked if he "backs out"several days later instead of sending you the money.
"Break at deal, face the wheel."
"Break a deal, face the wheel."
The rule at BARTER TOWN...
Mad Max at the Thunderdome
K4ICL
The rule at BARTER TOWN...
Mad Max at the Thunderdome
K4ICL
ka4tue
here is my side of the story. i decided i did not need the filter. i was honest with the seller. he got real upset. alot of smart remarks. i ask for his phone number two different times, so i could explain. no phone number sent. i did tell him i had changed my mind on other deals. i have also had others to change their minds. that does not make them dishonest. i did tell the seller if he was going to get real upset with me over 75.00. i would do the deal. i ask him to please tell me what he wanted me to do. no responce. i am sorry about this deal. this seller just got real upset. i was afraid to carry this deal out without his contact number. i have delt with many, good and bad. i don't have any neg things to say. i said i was sorry. i guess get the rope and tree ready. i am guilty of backing out of a 75.00 deal...ka4tue
i have done a lots of deals with rick. heis a number one trader and a good man. i have had people to back out on me and never tell me so WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL!!! no money or goods exchanged hands and if he wants to change his mind so what. soulution find you another buyer and quite CRYING! i will continue to trade with rick with no hesitation.73s w4pig
Hello...I read this forum from time to time. I was completely shocked to read what this operator has had to say about Rick/ka4tue Vassar. Why would I read a comment about a true friend of mine and then pass judgement on him because of some insensitive comment from a person I don't even know. This is a great example of taking an advantage of modern technology to create a monster of a mountain out of a simple mole hill. None of us are the perfect individual that some of the commenters think we are, we all have areas that we can improve in, but are we now not allowed to change our minds and do something different. I will re-state what I said in the beginning of this reply, Rick Vassar is a true friend of mine and I'm just thankful that he was man enough to not sling mud and just admit to the deal that went sour. BUT, I will say this, he does not deserve to nor is he going to hang for a $75.00 deal for I will be there to lift him up.
I think we should have just have a little more patience and understanding with each other, afterall we have to live in this world together. We should be more careful how we step on the toes of those on this page, because they might belong to the person we want something from on the next page. Then to find out that the person isn't so bad after all...W4FED
I think we should have just have a little more patience and understanding with each other, afterall we have to live in this world together. We should be more careful how we step on the toes of those on this page, because they might belong to the person we want something from on the next page. Then to find out that the person isn't so bad after all...W4FED
The continuing saga...According to an email KA4TUE sent me (which I still have), he backed out because he sold the radio he was going to put the filter in. He admitted in that email the radio was listed "for trade" when he told me he would buy my filter. My conclusion is, he told me he would buy my filter in case his radio didn't sell. He didn't send the money because he was stalling to see if his radio sold. It obviously sold so he didn't want the filter. In the meantime I'm telling everyone else the filter has sold because I believed him. Apparently KA4TUE and others feel this is an acceptable way to do business. It may be acceptable to others but it isn't to me. I have never done this to anyone...ever. His comment I never emailed him and told him what I wanted him to do is incorrect. I emailed him and the email never came back to me. How many think he never got it? Would it make sense to any rational person that I would not respond after all the hassle? I responded, once again, that he should send me the money. The one thing he did say that is true is that I would did not send him my phone number. I don't routinely give out my phone number, especially when its unnecessary. He never once made me giving him my phone number a condition of sending the money and I can prove it. In my opinion he was stalling thinking I would give up like others have probably done. If you think I'm over reacting then, by all means, do business with KA4TUE et al. On the other hand, if you think this is not the way to conduct one's self then you have been warned. I suppose KA4TUE and his friends are saying it is fine to deal with them in this manner. If you agree with KA4TUE then please don't bother to call me on anything I have to sell, but feel free to buy from them and back out on the deal if you choose to. They say they don't mind since it a very minor thing.
"The one thing he did say that is true is that I would did not send him my phone number. I don't routinely give out my phone number, especially when its unnecessary. He never once made me giving him my phone number a condition of sending the money and I can prove it" from W9ZX
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Doesn't your phone number come up when you click on "email" just under your listing? Yep....there it is.
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Doesn't your phone number come up when you click on "email" just under your listing? Yep....there it is.
Not taking sides but here's a suggestion
While I don't agree it's a good thing to say you'll buy something then back out on the deal sometimes things happen. I had to back out on a deal once because I lost my job the very next day after I said I'd buy something from someone. I figured money for food was more important than a hobby item.
The thing I do when I have an item for sale and someone says they'll take it and others also are interested is tell all others a deal is pending and I'll notify them in a few days as soon as I know for sure. Then if the guy backs out you have people to call back on. So far I haven't missed selling an item yet doing it that way. If it does sell I always notify everyone interested that it has been sold so they don't get a sour taste for me.
The thing I do when I have an item for sale and someone says they'll take it and others also are interested is tell all others a deal is pending and I'll notify them in a few days as soon as I know for sure. Then if the guy backs out you have people to call back on. So far I haven't missed selling an item yet doing it that way. If it does sell I always notify everyone interested that it has been sold so they don't get a sour taste for me.
Backing out of a deal IS a breach of contract...
There seems to be some misunderstanding about the latitude a buyer has regarding agreed to deals. Take a look at this definition.
This is a legal matter. Not a matter of feeling it is okay, "I have had it done to me before.", "So what, no harm done." etc. Breaking a contract such as been described in this thread puts the buyer at risk of legal action to recover real damages incurred by the seller, including loss of time due the the buyer's action, lost of revenue, loss of opportunity to sell to others, etc. etc.
This is serious business, folks. When you agree to buy an item from someone on the Internet, you incur a legally binding obligation and you are not at liberty to walk away from the deal you made without legally sanctioned cause. This rule in embedded in common law and has existed for centuries. Just because it is easier to make a deal on-line, does not make make it easier to back out of a deal you should not have made in the first. place.
Be diligent; be careful.
Regards,
K4ICL
P.S.: In the case discussed in this thread, when the seller agreed to sell the item after being challenged by the buyer, and the buyer backed out of completing his end of the deal, the BUYER was at fault for changing his mind and backing out of the deal. This puts the "blame" on both parties. We can look at it two ways: 1) The buyer and seller failed to properly communicate and the deal should be voided. or 2) The deal collapsed because the seller backed out and then the buyer became angry and backed out. I choose the former.
When a buyer and seller become of one mind on exchanging goods and/or services between the parties, an binding oral contract exists, a contract enforceable in law. There are legal provisions for allowing a contracted agreement to be broken but none include reasoning such as buyer changed his mind. Legally sanction reasons for terminating a contract might include inability to comply with terms of contract, discovery of misrepresentation, fraud, etc. But "I decided not to meet my contracted obligation." is not one of them.A contract is a legally binding exchange of promises or agreement between parties that the law will enforce. Contract law is based on the Latin phrase pacta sunt servanda (literally, promises must be kept)[1].[1] Breach of a contract is recognised by the law and remedies can be provided. Almost everyone makes contracts everyday. Sometimes written contracts are required, e.g., when buying a house.[2] However the vast majority of contracts can be and are made orally, like buying a law text book, or a coffee at a shop. Contract law can be classified, as is habitual in civil law systems, as part of a general law of obligations (along with tort, unjust enrichment or restitution).
This is a legal matter. Not a matter of feeling it is okay, "I have had it done to me before.", "So what, no harm done." etc. Breaking a contract such as been described in this thread puts the buyer at risk of legal action to recover real damages incurred by the seller, including loss of time due the the buyer's action, lost of revenue, loss of opportunity to sell to others, etc. etc.
This is serious business, folks. When you agree to buy an item from someone on the Internet, you incur a legally binding obligation and you are not at liberty to walk away from the deal you made without legally sanctioned cause. This rule in embedded in common law and has existed for centuries. Just because it is easier to make a deal on-line, does not make make it easier to back out of a deal you should not have made in the first. place.
Be diligent; be careful.
Regards,
K4ICL
P.S.: In the case discussed in this thread, when the seller agreed to sell the item after being challenged by the buyer, and the buyer backed out of completing his end of the deal, the BUYER was at fault for changing his mind and backing out of the deal. This puts the "blame" on both parties. We can look at it two ways: 1) The buyer and seller failed to properly communicate and the deal should be voided. or 2) The deal collapsed because the seller backed out and then the buyer became angry and backed out. I choose the former.
No...I don't think it's a contract
It's been awhile since I've taken business law......but if I remember correctly, there are a couple types of contracts....unilateral and bilateral. Unilateral only requires one side to execute his part of the contract for the contract to be binding. Bilateral requires both.
In this case neither side actually executed part of the contract as the item was not shipped nor was money paid. Therefore there is really no contract. There may have been an agreement, but that is not necessarily a contract.
Then again.....I could have this all bass ackwards. hihi.
73
Greg
AB7R
In this case neither side actually executed part of the contract as the item was not shipped nor was money paid. Therefore there is really no contract. There may have been an agreement, but that is not necessarily a contract.
Then again.....I could have this all bass ackwards. hihi.
73
Greg
AB7R
Bad Press Hurts Us All
I wonder how many hams, new and old, follow posts like this and have finally decided that trading gear online or at the ham fest is just too painful? It certianly has made me think twice.
While the mild dissapointment of a missed sale is understandable, the associated rage or the attempted character assassination is not. I would think this level of ire would be reserved for a substantial loss.
Rick is a good friend whom I have had the honor knowing for the past 25 years give or take. Rick is honest almost to a fault and I've learned as many have, that if you don't want the truth right between the eyes, you had better not ask him. I've been to many hamfests with Rick, and see first hand many of his deals and he always, with out question goes the extra mile to help people.
Darryl
While the mild dissapointment of a missed sale is understandable, the associated rage or the attempted character assassination is not. I would think this level of ire would be reserved for a substantial loss.
Rick is a good friend whom I have had the honor knowing for the past 25 years give or take. Rick is honest almost to a fault and I've learned as many have, that if you don't want the truth right between the eyes, you had better not ask him. I've been to many hamfests with Rick, and see first hand many of his deals and he always, with out question goes the extra mile to help people.
Darryl
I tend to agree with AB7R.
The example they used with us in B-law was: You walk into a bar and order a beer. The bartender says "OK, you got it". Two hours later, you still didn't get your beer. Did the bartender break his contract to deliver a beer?
In this case, like AB7R says, there was an agreement to buy a beer and to sell a beer. The legal question is: When do the buyer and seller become legally obligated to buy and sell?
Basically, the way the explained it to us is when the seller is obligated to deliver or the buyer is obligated to pay. If the buyer tenders payment and the seller receives and accepts payment, then the seller is obligated to deliver. Alternately, if the seller performs some act that renders the goods unsaleable to another buyer, personalizing or customizing them, then the buyer is obligated to pay.
If you think that these concepts are simple. just look at the appellate and supreme court decisions. The concepts are still being litigated today.
One of the problems in trying to enforce a contract to buy is that the seller MUST prove damages. In other words, the seller must show another, credible buyer who could and would have "closed" the deal. Most judges would say, "You've still got your XYZ, so what are you out?"
There are two problems with most internet buy-sell contracts. The dollar amount involved in most of these deals is small compared to the costs of litigation making litigation economically not viable. Then there's diversity of citizenship. When the seller is in one state and the buyer in another, you have the question of which court has jurisdiction and which state's contract law governs. Also, the would-be defendant must be served with required legal documents, compelled to give depositions and otherwise participate in pre-trial fact-finding, and the judgment, if any, enforced.
Jerry
N9LCD
The example they used with us in B-law was: You walk into a bar and order a beer. The bartender says "OK, you got it". Two hours later, you still didn't get your beer. Did the bartender break his contract to deliver a beer?
In this case, like AB7R says, there was an agreement to buy a beer and to sell a beer. The legal question is: When do the buyer and seller become legally obligated to buy and sell?
Basically, the way the explained it to us is when the seller is obligated to deliver or the buyer is obligated to pay. If the buyer tenders payment and the seller receives and accepts payment, then the seller is obligated to deliver. Alternately, if the seller performs some act that renders the goods unsaleable to another buyer, personalizing or customizing them, then the buyer is obligated to pay.
If you think that these concepts are simple. just look at the appellate and supreme court decisions. The concepts are still being litigated today.
One of the problems in trying to enforce a contract to buy is that the seller MUST prove damages. In other words, the seller must show another, credible buyer who could and would have "closed" the deal. Most judges would say, "You've still got your XYZ, so what are you out?"
There are two problems with most internet buy-sell contracts. The dollar amount involved in most of these deals is small compared to the costs of litigation making litigation economically not viable. Then there's diversity of citizenship. When the seller is in one state and the buyer in another, you have the question of which court has jurisdiction and which state's contract law governs. Also, the would-be defendant must be served with required legal documents, compelled to give depositions and otherwise participate in pre-trial fact-finding, and the judgment, if any, enforced.
Jerry
N9LCD
Thats a first!
That is....someone agreeing with me....hihi. Just kidding.
Where damages can be recovered is if there was a condition of the sale.....like fixing something in a radio. If the seller incurs an expense associated with the sale and the buyer backs out, the seller should be able to recover damages in the amount he spent to fix the radio.
OK...thats about all I remember for BL.
Its fun to apply it in the real world though.
73
Greg
AB7R
Where damages can be recovered is if there was a condition of the sale.....like fixing something in a radio. If the seller incurs an expense associated with the sale and the buyer backs out, the seller should be able to recover damages in the amount he spent to fix the radio.
OK...thats about all I remember for BL.
Its fun to apply it in the real world though.73
Greg
AB7R