Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong with K4MRF

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As of Dec 9, 2013: ONLY BUYERS AND SELLERS directly involved with a transaction can post here. Do not post replies in any topic if you are not the buyer or seller in the transaction being discussed! If you believe you can help the buyer or seller, please use the Private Message system to communicate with them. NOTE: if you have been scammed by someone pretending to be a ham, please post in the Scammer Reports forum instead. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=136 for additional rules.
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n2wjw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:26 pm

Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong with K4MRF

Post by n2wjw » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:29 pm

I recently purchased a vintage Heathkit rig from John K4MRF using this forum. The seller described the rig in perfect working order, no problems.
Seller kept me updated and tells me the rig was dropped off at UPS for them to pack and ship.
Rig arrived and first thing I notice... most tubes came off their sockets, a couple of them broke and there is a dent in one corner. Looking at the packing, not the best I've seen but not the worse either.
So I replaced the broken tubes, put them back in place fire the rig up and no sound, no power. Upon further looking inside, I noticed a broken switch wafer.
At this point, it is more a project rig than a working rig, I'm sure there are other issues I have not found yet but that is only an assumption.

My feeling is, as a ham, I would make sure tubes are protected for shipping and that the rig is sold as advertised.
Also when shipping, especially a ham has to assume the worse and leaving it up to UPS to pack a vintage rig is asking for trouble. I also feel the seller holds some responsibility, it is always too easy to blame the carrier.

For a couple of days I tried contacting the seller without any response, and I want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

What do you guys think and how would you handle something like this?

Is the seller partially responsible?

Gil N2WJW
Last edited by n2wjw on Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

K4ICL
Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:07 pm
Location: Greenville, SC
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Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong.

Post by K4ICL » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:47 am

I also feel the seller holds some responsibility, it is always too easy to blame the carrier.
It the the seller's TOTAL responsibility to properly pack and ship using the carrier of your choice. This is what YOU pay for and is not negotiable.

If the seller does not make sure the unit was packed properly and you receive it damaged you are DUE A TOTAL REFUND OF YOUR MONEY plus the cost to ship the damaged unit as needed. Your responsibility is to immediately send pictures of the damage when you report the damage to the seller. From that point on, the resolution of the issue is in the seller's ball park. The seller's failure to resolve the matter in a timely manner is just cause to take the matter to small claims court.

If there is damage to a properly packed item, then it is the seller's responsibility to deal with the carrier, since carriers will only deal with the shipment originator (the seller) and the matter is still in the seller's ball park.

Unless your agreed otherwise, the seller is totally responsible for getting your items to you undamaged and in the same condition as they were in when the deal was agreed to. He has NO EXCUSE for not following through on his shipping responsibilities.

Finally, DO NOT attempt to repair or dismantle the damaged equipment for any reason. You will loose any right to claim the damage was caused by the shipper and not caused by your repair efforts.

K9XR
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:51 pm

Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong.

Post by K9XR » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:11 am

I think I would be inclined to try to get my money back from either PayPal or the Credit Card Company before thinking about taking it to small claims court. You realize that any small claims court case would have to be filed in the sellers State in order to make the seller obligated to go to court? You COULD file it in your home state, but good luck on ever seeing the seller ever show up for court, and I don't think they will extradite for a small courts claim. Who is going to waste that much time, effort, and money on a trivial case like that?

K4ICL
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Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong.

Post by K4ICL » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:20 pm

K9XR:

You have made some very good points. The litigation process is often useless in this age of an antiquated legal structures. I am not sure going to the USPS for assistance with a Postal money order is of much value either. My first inclination would be to seek satisfaction from PayPal or my credit card service providers, depending on method of payment.

Given a significant lack of control and a weak legal back up, I am inclined to push for a simple rule change. It might go like this.

Buyer should send one half of the total agreed to price to the seller as good faith money for him to pack and ship the equipment. This will assure he has the funds to get the gear packed and shipped.

Upon receipt of the equipment and after a satisfactory inspecting and testing of the equipment, the buyer must immediately send the seller all remaining owed funds. This must be done within 24 hours of receipt of the equipment.

If there is damage to the shipment or any other unforeseen impediment, the two trading parties must quickly work out a solution which is fair to both.

Each party in the deal must know and agree to their obligations and the "deal" must be completely documented in writing, email or otherwise.


I am sure there is a need to study and discuss this and, perhaps, other approaches. If so, please feel free to contribute. There is a need to make some changes. Scamming is increasing and the Internet is not going to go away. WE must decide how to fix it and WE must be responsible for getting the fix in place.

AL
K4ICL

n2wjw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong.

Post by n2wjw » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:24 pm

I appreciate the support and suggestions! Sometimes I think we have to pick our battles, at this point (almost a week later) I still have not heard from the gentleman I made the transaction with after sending three emails.

I had a similar situation where I shipped a rig and during shipping some damage occurred, a partial refund was the most logical thing to do and I was able to resolve the issue that way. I also take responsibility with anything I ship and I always assume the worse so I make sure I pack very well, it's always too easy to blame the shipping carrier.

So I guess I'm hoping for a "logical" solution to this when and if the seller contacts me.

Gil n2wjw
Last edited by n2wjw on Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

K9XR
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:51 pm

Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong.

Post by K9XR » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:14 am

At one time (and maybe there still is) eBay and / or PayPal had what they called an "escrow" program where a third party held the money until everybody was happy. It IS getting harder and harder to feel good, safe, and secure about making any kind of a buy, sale, or trade on the internet. I don't make as many big money deals as I used to, but I do make a considerable amount of smaller deals all of the time.

For me, the safest feeling comes from right here on QTH. I keep pretty good track of what is going on and usually have a pretty good idea of who is buying and selling on here. I also deal enough here to have a good idea if an ad isn't real. Yes, there are more and more Crooks out here, but most of their victims don't follow the basic rules of safe trading which have been posted here in many different ways. most people will say I am crazy but most of the time when I am familiar with the person I am dealing with I will send the item before I even receive the payment. I also take personal checks and so far (knock on wood) I haven't been burned by anybody here. Hams by and large are pretty good people, but even good people can get in an occasional jam and fail to do what they thought they could do. I don't mind when somebody screws up and admits it, but I don't have much use for anybody who lies and / or steals from me or anybody else and then acts like there is nothing wrong with his actions.

K4ICL wrote:K9XR:

You have made some very good points. The litigation process is often useless in this age of an antiquated legal structures. I am not sure going to the USPS for assistance with a Postal money order is of much value either. My first inclination would be to seek satisfaction from PayPal or my credit card service providers, depending on method of payment.

Given a significant lack of control and a weak legal back up, I am inclined to push for a simple rule change. It might go like this.

Buyer should send one half of the total agreed to price to the seller as good faith money for him to pack and ship the equipment. This will assure he has the funds to get the gear packed and shipped.

Upon receipt of the equipment and after a satisfactory inspecting and testing of the equipment, the buyer must immediately send the seller all remaining owed funds. This must be done within 24 hours of receipt of the equipment.

If there is damage to the shipment or any other unforeseen impediment, the two trading parties must quickly work out a solution which is fair to both.

Each party in the deal must know and agree to their obligations and the "deal" must be completely documented in writing, email or otherwise.


I am sure there is a need to study and discuss this and, perhaps, other approaches. If so, please feel free to contribute. There is a need to make some changes. Scamming is increasing and the Internet is not going to go away. WE must decide how to fix it and WE must be responsible for getting the fix in place.

AL
K4ICL

n2wjw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong.

Post by n2wjw » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:56 pm

So after many attempts, a week later I got a response.

I am blown away, not what I expected, especially from an older ham.
I'll be fair, I truly understand why he feels doubtful and defensive but to just plain out tell me this issue is out of his hands is somewhat sad even after pictures of the damage were sent.

Also I want to point out, the purchase cost with shipping was well under $200. While that won't break the bank, it just makes it that much easier to resolve an issue like this with a partial even small refund as a "good gesture". I would have even taken a "What can we do about this?" rather than ending the email with "I have nothing else to say on this subject". I might just go ahead and disclose his call sign.

I hope I don't sound whiny, I'm over this and it is not so much about the money or the radio anymore, I'll get it up and running eventually, this is more about the attitude of this gentleman, what if it would have been a big $$ rig? And what happen to comradery between hams?
Last edited by n2wjw on Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

K4ICL
Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:07 pm
Location: Greenville, SC
Contact:

Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong.

Post by K4ICL » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:35 pm

And what happen to comradery between hams?
It is still very much there. But, as in the past, it is not 100%; never has been.

Of course, we your readers, won't get any help avoiding this particular person if you don't let us know who he is. [This is the purpose of Feedback.] It wold be better if you would share the person's call sign; otherwise why tell us about it?

Respectfully,

AL
K4ICL

n2wjw
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: Help/opinions on transaction gone wrong with K4MRF

Post by n2wjw » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:24 pm

So I've decided to share the seller's call, K4MRF John.
The reason why I'm going this far is his lack of concern once the rig arrived in the condition it did, dents in the cabinet and face and not working, it took a week for him to reply after numerous emails.
Here is a quote from his only reply to this issue....

>>> "If you found the conditions that you have described, then you should have contacted UPS and made a complaint, not send it out for repairs. I paid UPS to pack this unit securely and paid extra for insurance. By sending it out, you negated any chance of recourse to UPS. You were too quick to defend UPS and blame me for the damage!"<<<

Here's another quote....

>>>"Gil, I'm sorry this transaction went sour, but I have no intention of paying someone to "restore" a 45 year old rig, at my expense!
I will have nothing else to say on this subject!!"<<<

I had a ham friend of mine assess the damage, it has no receive or transmit just a hum and he found a broken switch wafer. I replaced the broken tubes, those are the repairs he's talking about and since he did not reply, what was I to do? Seller won't take the rig back so Im stuck with it. I never asked him to pay for a restoration, however I do feel he is responsible for damages since how one packs a radio determines how it will arrive.

So that has been my experience with John K4MRF.

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